Flu pandemic...probable chaos?

[KevinAu 441]

Perhaps "Robots" is too glib a word, but what is happening is the advancement of technology, computers, software, machinery, etc. makes all work, any work, from manufacturing, to stevedoring, to dry cleaning, to accounting, to selling, to piloting, to warfighting, all require fewer and fewer people to accomplish.The world changes, economics forces are greater than anything any president Republican or Democrat can materially alter. I see your answer to my question is "It's the president's job to fix it!" I find that answer a little disappointing. Let's make you President Donmo. Again, propose a solution or solutions. What are you going to do about the Walmartization of consumption...the premise that cheap is king that consumers in this country hold. Are you going to start raising tariffs on China? What will that do to Boeing's foreign sales then? You do realize Boeing is all we really have in terms of major exports. Are you willing to hand our last standing, number one exporter's position in China to Airbus? So you say even the Chinese manufacturers are using "robotix", so it's not really jobs being lost here and being taken over by a Chinese person then, is it? So if it is not cheap Chinese labor, then what is it? Is it because we just have the higher costs here, in land, in taxes, in labor, in capital equipment? Water flows downhill....companies will always seek the lowest cost. The less developed world will always have costs that are less than that here. What are you going to do about water flowing downhill? Put a stop to American companies investing in foreign countries? How then, will American companies compete abroad with EU companies that do invest in cheap foreign countries? How do you propose to even out the playing field? Should we help these other countries develop so that their standards of living are higher, so that the costs of manufacturing there are commensurately higher, so that the water is not flowing downhill anymore?Educate people here? I agree with that. We need to stop lamenting the loss of low skill manufacturing jobs to foreign countries and realize that we are moving on to other things. Let the Chinese make the baby dolls. The people of America need to realize that the world is advancing and their skills need to advance as well. If you lose your job hammering out sheetmetal, suck it up and learn to repair computers. Just as the workforce of blacksmiths had to readapt when the automobile entered mass production, factory workers in the US need to readapt as well.

[Donmo 6]

I said elected officials, which means elected people at all levels. The people do not make foreign trade policies, the government does. I didn't blame the president, but to answer that call, this president has screwed up so much, he'd be the last person I'd look to to figure out a fix for anything. If we had a normal president who wasn't being so business driven and was aware of what was actually happening in the country, perhaps an answer could be found. Tariffs? Well, that is a 50-50 answer. Some say yes, some say no. Both answers have their faults. We need people to invest in American companies that make American goods in America using LEGAL American workers. We should maintain tax relief for those companies who remain true-blue to the made in America idea. These companies would have to sell for very little profit, BUT rather depend on volume to make their money. We need to counter the opposite of cheap goods, larger profit margines per piece. Volume is the only way to do it. We must sell the buyers on the quality and the concept. People are being sold on China. China is such a sterile word. It should be tagged as RED COMMUNIST CHINA. People have forgotten about the communists. The average American doesn't realize how much we borrow from China to survive, how much we owe them, and how much our trade deficit is. Too many Americans believe that the skies are sunny and all is well. They must be told the truth! IF Americans were told of what the potential end could be at the rate we are going, maybe, just maybe they would not be so willing to go to the MART stores and contribute to the communist economy.The program of buy American was started too late. Too many goods had already flooded the market, and not enough push was given. The American people must be educated in the importance of this! this country is not alright, right now. Yes, it will be hard to convince stockholders to buy into slow growth, but it is the only way to counter what is happening. It must be made into a national effort by all for all. We must take our dependence away from the rest of the world, and put our future back into our hands, not theirs. By doing this, we will not need the communists to survive. Boeing and Airbus? Tough call. The country with the better technology will survive that war. As long as the rest of the world is turning out more engineers than we are, they will win. Again, education is the key. But when you have a government such as ours who raises the interest rates on student loans, and forces some people away from education by making it unaffordable, the rest of the world will win the educational battle. They already are. Our greatest investment in our own country is education. Our future depends upon it, even if it means higher taxes to do it. I know that isn't popular with everyone, but taxes should be spent more wisely, and in some cases even be raised. If the government is borrowing as it is, it should be obvious the tax base and income isn't enough to run the country. A country can only trim back so many programs to save money until it starts to have a negative effect on its people. I'd rather pay higher taxes than to borrow money off of the communists!These would be good starts to head us back on track. Investors who are willing to help turn us back into a self-sufficient country; education to compete in world markets in industry and technology, and perhaps tax increases, if for nothing else, to fund the educational system better and promote the made in America industrial system. people here enjoy being called patriotic. They must be shown that supporting communist countries and borrowing and being dependent upon communist countires is NOT the way for a free society and superpower as we are, should be acting. They need to hear what we are doing, and not be told how booming the economy is, as tens of thousands of jobs are announced as closing. replacing $15.00 an hour job with a $6.00 an hour job does not a booming economy make. These are starts. It wouldn't be easy, but it is "do-able!" It's worth a try. It's better than the constant decent into the grips ov communist dependency.Don

[KevinAu 441]

You know, I actually agree with most of what you say. I completely agree with your sentiments on Buy America, Buy Quality, Don't Buy Communist China, et al. I'm just saying there are forces much greater than "our Commander In Chief" or "elected people who have departments" can change. Perhaps they can implement some protectionist or isolationist policies, but these will serve nothing than to postpone the inevitable consequences of economic forces by a few years or decades. And these policies will all have contra-effects that will hurt as much as they help.Consumer habits and corporate aims will not change. Lowest cost and maximum profits is all each of those can ever strive for. Anything else will become some sort of subsidy or unbalanced situation. Neither of which can last or be healthy. I dare you, the next time you and your family go somewhere for vacation, buy your airline tickets full fare on a traditional airline that actually provides a real transportation service instead of just being a cherry picker. Give them your credit card numbers in the satisfaction that you are Buying American, Buying Quality, Supporting Union Labor, and Fighting Walmartization. It will cost a couple of thousand bucks more though. Are you ready for that?If I could live two hundred years, my wager is that what will happen is that, if the world does not end in a bloodbath between Muslims and the rest of the western world, is that wealth will flow from the developed countries to the rest of the world until a point of equilibrium is reached where what is now third world countries will become richer and the current first world countries will seem a bit poorer compared to today. At that point of equilibrium, there will be no more reason for deficits and drainage from any country to any other country. You already see it happening. Japan, who used to suck up all our wealth, is now in the same situation we are, with respect to SE Asia. Their wealth is now also flowing out to lower points of the economic waterbucket. The world economy will eventually find its natural equilibrium and we will have to find something else to quibble about.

[Guest beana51]

What your saying is currently being reflected in China's space program.Now where do you suppose they got these Ideas,much less the cash!All we can do is request that their proposed space station has a universal port.This way we all can fit in,as guests. Meanwhile its going to be a cold winter.Cash will be tight.China,like some money lender will accommodate us.And maby sell us oil directly,as they are in the process to buy and lock up world suppliers.The magic of compound interest is definitely on the side of the China.The year 2020,sounds like an optimistic year,I think sooner.Now it would be nice if we could share the space endeavors,and also the world energy supplies.Unlike as with the former Soviet Union,a more peaceful attitude towards each other would benefit all.Then again,China is growing,and I'm sure they want their day in the Sun.They are patient,united,talented, have great history and culture and all are Chinese.The next crises we face will be Taiwan.The way that is resolved will point the way of future relationships. Now back to the "CHICKENS" some European countries are cutting their purchase and consumption of poultry.Turkey(LOL) is a major supplier. It still looms as an international crises.No debating with that threat.It will require more work and less conjecture. CHEERS MEN,:-beerchug

[Bob Scott 7,721]

Donmo wrote:>You must remember, when the big rush of foreign stuff came in,>it was junk. I remember Blaupunkt radios. Nikon cameras. The VW bug. It wasn't all junk.>Then Japanese, (mostly then) learned from us how>to mass-produce quality better than we could. WE taught them>how to make their stuff better! That gained more sales for>them. Things were still fine. Where it all falls apart in this>and any country, is when the levels of trade lean away from>yours and my economy, and favors the exporting country.>Government CAN stop that. THAT is what is killing ALL>countries that have a trade deficit, and NONE have it as bad>as the U.S. That would boost the economy by putting people>back to work to make things to sell to the exporting company. >As long as foreign trade isn't fair and BALANCED, we can not>maintain the levels of power we are at. I also remember the mid-70s Chrysler products. And the GM products. And the Ford products. The reason the Japanese kicked our a**es in the auto market in the 1980s was that our lazy auto workers and their products SUCKED and we flocked wholesale to japanese-made cars that had far surpassed what our lazy, drunk, high detroit workforce could or would produce for us. Had government stopped the trade balance shift that ocurred, all we would have been left with is a nation full of broken-down K-cars and Gremlins. Detroit would have continued pumping out poorly engineered and poorly built gas guzzlers simply because they could. The factory workers that lost their jobs to the imports then NEEDED to. It's the price you pay for falling asleep at the wheel.>I was listening to a>report last night about this. By 2020, China will be more>powerful, economicaly and militarily than the U.S., and will>replace us as the number one super-power. That isn't too far>away. You shouldn't believe everything you hear. I heard the same report about the Soviet Union back around 1975, too. This is unsubstantiated, paranoid Chicken Little style hype, and nothing more.BTW, who is "us" in this case? Why should Jeroen (not Jerome) in Holland care if the US maintains status as a superpower? Why is the existence of ANY superpower a good thing? Maybe civilized people in other parts of the world don't appreciate the only superpower beaming Jerry Springer, Beverly Hills 90210, or Paris Hilton's "Simple Life" into their homes teaching THEIR kids how to be decadent scumbags. >We'll also lose our current place to borrow money. Where>will our money come from then? We will have to fight to>survive, and another industial revolution will occur. Stick>around, and you'll see a change in how things are done. It>won't be pretty.Mankind has always had to fight to survive. It's the nature of life. And maybe a change in how things are done is needed. We already have an entire sector of the US population that produces little or nothing and gets paid for it every month. We saw some of them acting out in New Orleans last month. And now we have a batch of uneducated and semi-skilled workers crying because their job at the local assembly line won't buy them a house with a white picket fence? Gee, too bad, they might actually have to wake up from that dream. Maybe they'd have done better if they hadn't ditched math class.Where we Americans are losing the bubble is the deluded notion that we no longer have to fight to survive in the global economy. We seem to expect to be able to sit on our haunches, collect more and more for doing less and less (or nothing) and expect the government to prevent other guys who are pedaling harder than we are from passing us bye. Pure fantasy, that. An uneducated factory worker and the products he makes are not competitive in the world market at $25-50 an hour. And soon no airline pilot is going to be competitive at $150,000 a year, either. There are lots of others in the world equally educated, trained and capable of doing that work for far less, and in a global economy, they will get their crack at it eventually.Bob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Santiago de Chile

[Donmo 6]

That isn't even worth answering.Don

[Bob Scott 7,721]

Sorry that I had to burst your bubble.RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Santiago de Chile

[Donmo 6]

You didn't. Actually, you made me laugh! That is the biggest crock I have ever read in here. Prost!Don

[Bob Scott 7,721]

I'd think it funny too, if there wasn't some truth in there.I was sitting in a small lounge at Jomo Kenyatta Intl airport in Nairobi in the spring of 2003 waiting for a connecting flight...and to my horror, with a packed crowd in this little lounge area, the TV was playing none other than the Jerry Springer show...something about sleeping with one's stepfather before Mom married him or the likes. I looked around the room at the assortment of reactions: puzzlement, disdain, downright disgust. Is that what being a superpower gets us?? Jerry Springer? Queer Eye for the Straight Guy?? MTV's Jacka**??? (And a few generations of lazy nonproductive viewers for the same?)>We'll also lose our current place to borrow money. Where will our >money come from then? Ummm...our bank accounts, just maybe? I know that's a foreign concept to most of our super-power super-citizens. Dumb ideas like saving...living within our means.With the average U.S. household credit card debt in the 5-figure range and growing, maybe we NEED to lose some of that easy money supply. We're just digging a hole so we can buy bigger TV sets to watch Jerry Springer on, figuratively speaking.>We will have to fight to survive, and another industial revolution >will occur. Stick around, and you'll see a change in how things are >done. It won't be pretty.Hopefully there'll be enough people left willing to fight to survive, at least in between episodes of Jerry Springer and Judge Judy. :-lolAnyway, I sure HOPE there's a change coming in how things are done, because it ain't pretty right now.

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

This thread has gone off into free market versus the opposite; communism versus the opposite, etc etc.I just arrived in The Netherlands aboard a B777 and took a packed train to Hengelo. The thought of bird flu rampant among my fellow travelers sent chills up my back. Here's my thoughts.. What if:Countries closed their borders to prevent transmission by humans?Airlines quit flying for fear of transmitting the Avian Flu?Oil companies shut down production because airlines quit flying and as a result, laid people off?People stayed away from work in fear of catching the flu, say 20 or 40 percent?Like Singapore during SARS, countries did profiling of you using IR cameras as you enter the country, etc, and could and would put you on a plane back to your origin?50 percent of the people on your block died from the flu (as happened in some cities during the pandemic in 1918)?Think about the ramifications of a global outbreak. Think it is far fetched? I work for a company (among many) that barred travel to SE Asia during SARS and therefore didn't spend money in SEAsia - damaging the economy beyond measure. It isn't far fetched, and drug company profits have little or nothing to do with it. Believe me.. If a United or British Airways saw their business coming to a screeching halt, the profits of a drug company or two would not stand in the way of a solution.I am worried... very, very worried about this...

[Guest beana51]

It was not too long ago ,AIDS was a someware, local thing. It took one very promiscuous individual to send it around the world in a flash.The vehicle was not camel train ,but of course JET planes.I hope we know all we can about this thing. Deference then you died latter,with this these symptoms it may be sooner. Same thing however!.We did not know much about AIDS,then, if I recall. Kinda reminds ya of the story of "TYPHOID MARY".Who really cares about political systems,money,or drug companies.When you need help,And I hope no one will, YA DON'T CARE! AND ITS NOT IMPORTANT! VIN

[btacon 1,795]

Hi Tom...I too am worried, but I also think there is a lot of speculation around this topic, both from the public AND medical community.It is hard to see where the hype ends and the risk begins. Charles Krauthammer tells a frightning story of the risks we are taking in our efforts to devise a vacine against a future pandemic by recreating the 1918 Spanish Flu.http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/ch.../14/171278.htmlHere is a slightly more refrained message from a University of Chicago researcher, quoted on Instapundit. "As a medical researcher, I want to make a gentle but sincere plea to the blogosphere to calm down this flu hysteria just a bit..."http://instapundit.com/archives/026224.phpI think the real truth lies somewhere in between these divergent views.Cheers,bt

[Guest Charlie]

"It is hard to see where the hype ends and the risk begins"Very true. My gut feeling is that the current hype exceeds the real risk significantly. But IF that is the case, the question becomes WHY is there such a campaign to stir these new fears in the masses? What new assaults on our freedom are they conditioning us to accept? I might be going off the deep end here with this, but then again....What I fear most today is the proven capability of the government/media to manipulate the public into whatever mindset they choose.

[Donmo 6]

Charlie, I agree with you 110%. The new world order is to keep everyone living in fear. I feel this is no exception. Don

[Bob Scott 7,721]

>Charlie, I agree with you 110%. The new world order is to>keep everyone living in fear. I feel this is no exception. >>DonI think some of the recently-deceased residents of New Orleans might have been uttered something like the above quote as they listened to the National Hurricane Center forecasts and evacuation orders in the critical hours before Katrina's landfall. Darwin sorted that one out for them.Lots of big-brained medical people who don't have an interest in hyping the avian flu threat are genuinely worried. If you know anything at all about recombinatorial genetics, especially in influenza viruses, you should know enough to have a healthy respect for the nontrivial probabilities...and to fear the potential consequences enough to take it seriously. If not, Mr Darwin still has some appointments available. I hear he plays Jerry Springer on the TV in his waiting room... :-lol :-lol :-lolBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Santiago de Chile