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Cruachan

Be careful what you wish for: a cautionary note

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Let us not have the debate being structured by trolls of two detestable varieties : those who want loudly FS20 to fail which is unthinkable after what we have seen so far in the teasers and those who want as loudly  the addon cottage industry to disappear which is also unthinkable knowing that it has made the hobby what it is now. 

The shot was fired early in June, you may regret it but nobody will change anything to it. And besides Raul , I have not heard any developer having released products on the market to complain, if I am not mistaken. I am sure that the sales are not very good these days but his colleagues are busy working, I suppose.

If we can change anything, it is not by talking at length on how Microsoft should have run then or should run its business now, including how they should run their testing ! Excuse me but I find it a little laughable.

3PD parties are important but there are not what a new sim is about. It is  mainly about a developer Asobo/MS and you and me, the users. We must voice what we would like to see in the new sim and so many things cannot be brought to the table but by 3PD. 

 

Edited by domkle
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Dominique

Simming since 1981 -  4770k@3.7 GHz with 16 GB of RAM and a 1080 with 8 GB VRAM running a 27" @ 2560*1440 - Windows 10 - Warthog HOTAS - MFG pedals - MSFS Standard version with Steam

 

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34 minutes ago, domkle said:

And besides Raul , I have not heard any developer having released products on the market to complain, if I am not mistaken

I am not sure if I understand your comment. 

People love my product, you should see their reactions and reviews after using it and I feel honored to have had such impact on their simulation experience. That alone for me is a great success. Even if I had just 1 copy sold with that effect to someone life I would have been happy.

If I was here for the money I would be gone by now.. I am here for the passion of the hobby and every time a new person buys my product and express how much they love it, my passion gets ignited again.

Maybe I miss understood what you mean, English is not my first language. 

All my opinions here are based on real concerns f or this hobby from the other side of the coin, nothing more.

If I was you, I would be concerned why other developers are so silent.. It is not a good sign.. I do speak with many of them on a daily basis though 😉.

Regards,

Simbol 

 

Edited by simbol
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11 minutes ago, simbol said:

I am not sure if I understand your comment. 

People love my product, you should see their reactions and reviews after using it and I feel honored to have had such impact on their simulation experience. That alone for me is a great success. Even if I had just 1 copy sold with that effect to someone life I would have been happy.

If I was here for the money I would be gone by now.. I am here for the passion of the hobby and every time a new person buys my product and express how much they love it, my passion gets ignited again.

Maybe I miss understood what you mean, English is not my first language. 

All my opinions here are based on real concerns for another side of the coin for this hobby, nothing more.

If I was you, I would be concerned why other developers are so silent.. It is not a good sign.. I do speak with many of them on a daily basis though 😉.

Regards,

Simbol 

 

I didn't buy your product  but I am impressed by what you do ! I truly hope you will have some room to show your talent in the new sim. 

I’ve just stated a fact, maybe a little bluntly. I’ve not seen any other dev complaining. 

Should we (the users) be concerned ? Yes, we should be concerned to be positive and proposing ideas, features.... and to underline the importance of the 3PD dev. 

Your passion is very discernable , don’t you see the same when Asobo engineers tell us about their baby ?


 

Edited by domkle

Dominique

Simming since 1981 -  4770k@3.7 GHz with 16 GB of RAM and a 1080 with 8 GB VRAM running a 27" @ 2560*1440 - Windows 10 - Warthog HOTAS - MFG pedals - MSFS Standard version with Steam

 

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4 minutes ago, domkle said:

I’ve just stated a fact, maybe a little bluntly. I’ve not seen any other dev complaining.

Well, I am not like other developers, I don't hide my head under the sand and hope for the best.. 😉. and by the way if you read the entire thread you will see other developers raising their concerns here too, which is way different from "complaining".

5 minutes ago, domkle said:

Your passion is very discernable

Ok.. ask people around about me first.. no point claiming things on my own behalf.

6 minutes ago, domkle said:

don’t you see the same when Asobo engineers tell us about their baby ?

So? that doesn't change what is happening to this hobby at the moment. The topic of this thread has nothing to do with that.. and I have never said I want MS to fail, why on earth that would be good for anyone?? however I explained the reality of the situation on many topics, it is what is happening... and I said it many times too, I understand and I accept what is going on. Is that complaining, really? 

But I do want to see and SDK and more involvement with 3rd party developers, why is it negative that me or others express these views? I think it is important.. and so do others.

S.

 

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<sigh> I will let it go at that...


Dominique

Simming since 1981 -  4770k@3.7 GHz with 16 GB of RAM and a 1080 with 8 GB VRAM running a 27" @ 2560*1440 - Windows 10 - Warthog HOTAS - MFG pedals - MSFS Standard version with Steam

 

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26 minutes ago, domkle said:

I didn't buy your product  but I am impressed by what you do ! I truly hope you will have some room to show your talent in the new sim. 

I’ve just stated a fact, maybe a little bluntly. I’ve not seen any other dev complaining. 

Should we (the users) be concerned ? Yes, we should be concerned to be positive and proposing ideas, features.... and to underline the importance of the 3PD dev. 

Your passion is very discernable , don’t you see the same when Asobo engineers tell us about their baby ?


 

Playing devil's advocate here, all of this negativity and angst can be very easily resolved by Microsoft taking a more transparent approach with developers that they claim to be involving in the development of the new sim.  It is quite clear, that this is not happening to the extent Microsoft is claiming that it is.  

Uncertainty breeds negativity and it will be very difficult to stop that trend in the development community unless developers are properly engaged and given details of the SDK so that they can start planning ahead.  Any business run well, will be looking at least 2-3 years ahead and as many developers rely on development income alone, it would be reasonable for MS to provide some clarity. 

At the moment, the current development community is flying blind (pun intended) with no instruments -  even though ATC assures them that there is a runway ahead of them.  That really doesn't inspire confidence.

 

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13 minutes ago, ErichB said:

Playing devil's advocate here, all of this negativity and angst can be very easily resolved by Microsoft taking a more transparent approach with developers that they claim to be involving in the development of the new sim.  It is quite clear, that this is not happening to the extent Microsoft is claiming that it is.  

Uncertainty breeds negativity and it will be very difficult to stop that trend in the development community unless developers are properly engaged and given details of the SDK so that they can start planning ahead.  Any business run well, will be looking at least 2-3 years ahead and as many developers rely on development income alone, it would be reasonable for MS to provide some clarity. 

At the moment, the current development community is flying blind (pun intended) with no instruments -  even though ATC assures them that there is a runway ahead of them.  That really doesn't inspire confidence.

 

Four remarks, Erich. You know as a regular at the FS20 forum that I've been an ardent defender of the 3PD involvement over the years in our hobby but

- I'd rather have MS having a user-centric approach than a 3PD-centric approach.

- I'd rather have the formidably talented Asobo team do their best to lay out the foundations instead of constructing an instable construction just to give room to outsiders, at the beginning at least

- Jorg Neumann said he was in relation with sixty outside developers. That is a very important figure, is it not ?

- I don't see any negativity in the developers community but, repeatedly, from a couple of them

Edited by domkle
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Dominique

Simming since 1981 -  4770k@3.7 GHz with 16 GB of RAM and a 1080 with 8 GB VRAM running a 27" @ 2560*1440 - Windows 10 - Warthog HOTAS - MFG pedals - MSFS Standard version with Steam

 

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Early news about FS2020 is great new for us. An early SDK release will be good news for devs.

Let's just hope that the Asobo/MS dev team is not taking any of the non-sense on this thread seriously.


A pilot is always learning and I LOVE to learn.

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52 minutes ago, domkle said:

Four remarks, Erich. You know as a regular at the FS20 forum that I've been an ardent defender of the 3PD involvement over the years in our hobby but

- I'd rather have MS having a user-centric approach than a 3PD-centric approach.

- I'd rather have the formidably talented Asobo team do their best to lay out the foundations instead of constructing an instable construction just to give room to outsiders, at the beginning at least

- Jorg Neumann said he was in relation with sixty outside developers. That is a very important figure, is it not ?

- I don't see any negativity in the developers community but, repeatedly, from a couple of them

In my opinion a successful sim needs three things.  A powerful platform, a strong user base and a passionate and talented developer community.  It has always been that way.

I am of the same opinion as you to give time for a solid platform to be constructed first.    I also think that the new enthusiasm created in the user community is a great thing.  That will ensure a strong user base (one would think) after a whole year of hype.  

I'm not sure what the answer is here, and neither am I advocating an SDK for developers now, but in the absence of that,  a more transparent discussion with developers would probably help this aspect of the community to plan ahead (or not).  Talent in the developer community should be retained, not alienated.

 

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1 hour ago, domkle said:

Jorg Neumann said he was in relation with sixty outside developers. That is a very important figure, is it not ?

That could just mean MS have just sent an email to 60 developers with NDA papers saying 'sign this and shut your mouth even if we keep you in the dark.' - as opposed to  'chaps, you'll hear nothing from us until the new year but expect the SDK in 4 months, and this is what we plan to include in it at this stage'.  

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2 hours ago, ErichB said:

In my opinion a successful sim needs three things.  A powerful platform, a strong user base and a passionate and talented developer community.  It has always been that way.

I am of the same opinion as you to give time for a solid platform to be constructed first.    I also think that the new enthusiasm created in the user community is a great thing.  That will ensure a strong user base (one would think) after a whole year of hype.  

I'm not sure what the answer is here, and neither am I advocating an SDK for developers now, but in the absence of that,  a more transparent discussion with developers would probably help this aspect of the community to plan ahead (or not).  Talent in the developer community should be retained, not alienated.

 

 

2 hours ago, ErichB said:

That could just mean MS have just sent an email to 60 developers with NDA papers saying 'sign this and shut your mouth even if we keep you in the dark.' - as opposed to  'chaps, you'll hear nothing from us until the new year but expect the SDK in 4 months, and this is what we plan to include in it at this stage'.  

I agree mostly with everything you say in the first post.  I only wonder whether there is not already some kind of early discussions, this is at least what Neumann says. Why not believing him in absence of evidence of the contrary rather than disgruntled players ? That not everybody has been invited is to clear enough.

Has it to be transparent ? Up to the involved parties to decide, these are not public procurement contracts but private contracts. There is no obligation, even moral, to be transparent and I am not sure that the 3PD invited by MS want their less happy colleagues to be aware of that. 

Edited by domkle
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Dominique

Simming since 1981 -  4770k@3.7 GHz with 16 GB of RAM and a 1080 with 8 GB VRAM running a 27" @ 2560*1440 - Windows 10 - Warthog HOTAS - MFG pedals - MSFS Standard version with Steam

 

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24 minutes ago, domkle said:

Has it to be transparent ? Up to the involved parties to decide, these are not public procurement contracts but private contracts. There is no obligation, even moral, to be transparent and I am not sure that the 3PD invited by MS want their less happy colleagues to be aware of that. 

Fair.  Agree

Edited by ErichB

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9 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Wow these comments are completely off the wall ... I say one thing and some of you go off on a completely unrelated comments about transparency and 3PD-centric whatever that means?

Again, this issue is "timing" ... why announce in June, provide nothing to anyone as of Nov 18th and for a product that is targeted to be released "holidays 2020"?  The answer is?

Cheers, Rob.

You are going to confuse people with "facts".....🤔

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10 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

 

Again, this issue is "timing" ... why announce in June, provide nothing to anyone as of Nov 18th and for a product that is targeted to be released "holidays 2020"?  The answer is?

Cheers, Rob.

Video games from big studios are often announced well before release. Where are you getting “holidays 2020” from? 

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30 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Again, this issue is "timing" ... why announce in June, provide nothing to anyone as of Nov 18th and for a product that is targeted to be released "holidays 2020"?  The answer is?

Could it be that major studios normally announce major projects a long way in advance? (By the way, this is not a new thing!)

Or, alternatively, you (and a couple others) seem to be suggesting that Microsoft is doing this to somehow kill third-party developers? Why would that be in their interest, given that third-party development has been central to the MSFS model for decades?

Or is the argument that MSFS is trying to compete with peer sims like P3D and XP? (Not seeing what would be nefarious or underhanded about that, but ok?)

Maybe you could save us all some trouble and spell out what you’re driving at?

(I have a huge amount of respect for everything you’ve done for our hobby, by the way — I’m just trying to understand what you’re saying here.)

James

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