Be careful what you wish for: a cautionary note

[Dominique_K 10,133]

All the  software houses which have given us all these wonderful products over the years are quiet and we can imagine busy.  Do we hear them complain about SDK and the like ? We don't.  Do we hear only  developers or would be developers left along the road ? 

Edited November 18, 2019 by domkle

[Dominique_K 10,133]

This link is from June,  I was polite enough not to underline that (and I also  kind enough not to say what I think of CNBC). And, indeed, everybody was taken by surprise, not in the best sense of the word.  I found it unfortunate. I took some flak in June, on the other forum,  when I said a couple of times that MS was doing a bad manner to other developpers. Still think so but it is irrelevant now.

If the software houses of this sector have decided not to say a word more publicly they have their reasons. Again easy to understand. If you want to play the insider who knows better than most,  why not but some of us will also tell it how they see it :  the hard fact is that none of these houses have complained about the SDK or anything. Your facts are, until proven otherwise, rumors.

[RALF9636 1,888]

I do understand the developers point of view and that they have a hard time because of the early announcement.

But what about the users point of view?

Imagine MS would release MSFS at short notice. Users probably would say: Why didn't they announce it earlier? I spent a fortune on addons to enhance P3D in the recent months and now I won't use them ever again. An earlier announcement would have saved me a lot of money.

You can't please everybody. I am fine with the early announcement. Everybody can make informed decisions now.

And I still buy addons for P3D, maybe less than I would if there was no MSFS in sight, but if I think it gives me enough value for a year or so, I still buy it.

 

Edited November 18, 2019 by RALF9636

[Cruachan 705]

Hi,

If I might be permitted to play devil’s advocate while opening this discussion to other possibilities.

Consider this:

A lot appears to be hinging on the non-appearance of an MSFS2020 SDK. Is it possible, or even likely, that we might, in fact, never see such an SDK? What?! I hear you scream, that would be unthinkable! Really? Hasn’t it happened before? 

My understanding is that an NDA does not prohibit the disclosure of participation in a project, but does prohibit the revealing of content and details of any ongoing work. However, this restriction does not usually prevent Developers involved in gaming projects from disclosing their participation in the SDK nor Beta testing of the product.

Could this turn out to be the same deal as was agreed with Dovetail? I cannot claim any accuracy as to what follows but, again, my understanding is that it was said at the time that there would be an SDK but, in the end, it failed to materialise. We know that MS pulled their licence. Why? There is speculation that their intention was to use some of the new Dovetail code in MSFS2020 thereby forcing third party developers to achieve non-official access via the existing ‘old’ FSX SDK which, to a significant degree, may still remain relevant. 

Same as it was with Dovetail: We were tied into their DLC system while 3rd party developers produced and sold products based on the old SDK system. If true, then this would mean that no new features will appear or, if they do, then it won’t be documented or made available to the public. What will be possible will be dependent on what Developers have managed to save from the old SDK as I am told that this was removed from the MS site some time ago.

Then, there is the PMDG conundrum. What could be the explanation for their early close participation in this spectacular ground breaking project? Well, one theory is that they too don’t have early access to an MSFS2020-specific SDK because it is assumed that an SDK does not yet exist. Instead, what might have happened is that they have been commissioned by MS to build an aircraft for MSFS2020. As such, it’s possible they have been granted privileged access to the code base or they delivered their model to MS/ASOBO for integration into the sim. As such, their aircraft would then become a part of the new simulator’s default fleet of aircraft. Consequently it would not be available for sale as a separate product. This would be amazing for us but, if true, then it does beg the question as to how PMDG were persuaded to go down this road. At this moment in time all this, of course, is pure conjecture and guesswork on my part. Still, one can dream!

Mike

Edited November 19, 2019 by Cruachan

[SteveW 1,792]

NDAs include whatever rules they make for the safety of the project. So quite often, NDAs start out with a rule of non disclosure of participation in a project and even the existence of the NDA itself..

[fta2017 160]

There is a simple reason why developers are not talking.

They have been muzzled by Microsoft by being asked to sign an NDA which was the precursor to any level of ‘engagement’ or access to an SDK. Except there has been little to no engagement, nor an SDK. In fact they don’t even have a dedicated third party development manager on the MS team. Even Dovetail had TWO of those guys actively working with developers!

There is no need for conspiracy theories because those are the facts. And now, nearly six months after E3, developers are getting annoyed with MS and are beginning to talk between each other. It’s a small community and now it has become clear that MS are pretty disorganised internally and don’t really have a third party focus at all but instead are just giving lip service via glib media interviews and lots of promises being made in emails and conference calls, none of which are trusted by the developer community now.

Meantime developer income has effectively been destroyed and this problem gets worse with every new set of sexy videos that MS releases, all the while ignoring the developer community and failing even to deliver the promised tech alpha 1 to anyone. Expect to see more announcements from developers in the next weeks as they desperately try to avoid turning off the lights for good.

In a nutshell, all the goodwill that the third party developer community has built over the last 15 years has been destroyed by MS since E3, and there will be very few pieces to pick up by early next year. Alarmist? Nope, this is the reality of the situation and it won’t be long before developers say ‘nda be dammed, we’re speaking out!’

[Dominique_K 10,133]

11 hours ago, RALF9636 said:

I do understand the developers point of view and that they have a hard time because of the early announcement.

 

 

As I said before the shot was fired in June and it is futile to hope to catch the bullet to put it back in the gun. That the sales are affected is most probable, no need to play the insider to guess that. It is really unfortunate for the addon sector but as you say, Ralf,  there was no good solution. The user community benefits from it. And it is a lot of fun as shown in MFS forum at Avsim.

SDK or no SDK, the fact is that whole industry is pretty quiet these days, after the first shock in June. Who want to displease the big guy anyway when you have already made the connection with him or have the resources to show that you can be really useful to enhance the product with addons  ? Lets be careful not to make a wailing wall about the future of the 3PD sector from what say a couple of individuals who apparently couldn’t make the connection with MS. 

We will have plenty of stuff to play with at release and soon enough, great products from outsiders after a year or two to keep the interest up. Too optimistic ? Maybe, but hey! better than doomsday scenarios so trendy these days in any walk of life  😁 ! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mtr75 653]

On 11/13/2019 at 9:26 AM, Cruachan said:

Hi,

There has been much discussion on the forums surrounding those jaw-dropping videos and images which are forming an integral part of the clever advance publicity campaign promoting ASOBO Studio’s Microsoft Flight Simulator.

As part of these discussions, we are reading again and again of user intentions to abandon financial support for the current 3rd Party Community of Developers by ceasing to purchase their products. Seriously?! Surely it must be obvious what the likely consequences would be? Are we really so hell bent on the destruction of our hobby by suppressing all that talent and enthusiasm? Time for a reality check.

Despite what we have been told there are absolutely no guarantees we can trust MS to encourage ongoing 3rd Party Support and Development by producing an SDK for the new simulator. Indeed, can we trust MS to do anything when their modus operandi is, as always, driven by commercial considerations? 

If we are serious about ceasing support for the existing 3rd Party flight simming industry as we wait for this ‘wonderful’ new all-bells-and-whistles sim sometime in 2020, then we may come to rue the day as we also witness the collapse of our hobby along with all the riches and diversity of choice 3rd Party bring to the table. Come on, is it wise to be committing all our eggs to one basket? Being short-sighted is one thing, but compounding that with irrationality of thought is, quite simply, stupid in the extreme.

Regards,

Mike

Anyone who thinks that the MS sim is going to look like the videos and run on an everyday computer, I've got some waterfront property to sell ya. Ain't gonna happen. I am taking absolutely zero consideration for MS Flight Simulator in any decisions I make. None. I have P3D running beautifully right now and I intend to keep it that way. 

[newtie 533]

Agreed.

The thought of another sim doesn't interest me at this time.

Too much good stuff going on right now to concern myself with what may or may not happen in the future.

Thanks to all the devs for their hard work and perseverance through this uncertain time. I'm still amazed at the work you produce at the price you charge. As I mentioned a while back, if there were no P3D updates or additional add ons for a year or two, I'd be just fine. It wasn't that long ago (well, maybe it was) that I was running FlightSim on an Apple II GS with 8mb of ram. Those of us in that club know how good we have it right now. 😀

Cheers,

Mark

[Christopher Low 5,324]

I think it is worth remembering just where we would be in the current flight simulation world without third party addons. I know for a fact that if none were available, I would almost certainly not be involved in flight simulation at all. Living with default P3D is simply not an option.

[Dominique_K 10,133]

58 minutes ago, newtie said:

Agreed.

The thought of another sim doesn't interest me at this time.

Too much good stuff going on right now to concern myself with what may or may not happen in the future.

Thanks to all the devs for their hard work and perseverance through this uncertain time. I'm still amazed at the work you produce at the price you charge. As I mentioned a while back, if there were no P3D updates or additional add ons for a year or two, I'd be just fine. It wasn't that long ago (well, maybe it was) that I was running FlightSim on an Apple II GS with 8mb of ram. Those of us in that club know how good we have it right now. 😀

Cheers,

Mark

I begun with a 64k Apple 2C ! What the new sim promises to deliver, Mark, is what what we were dreaming then. I like my P3D loaded with great addons but when I see what FS 20 promises, well I realy look forward to it.  And I also look very much forward to the great addons from outside parties which will come with it.

[Dominique_K 10,133]

20 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Another wow, that's pretty short sighted ... "lot of fun" ... could you be more callous?  So exactly how have you benefited from this premature PR campaign? 

Wrong, you have no clue what connections we've made.  Until there is something to "not talk about" then it will not be talked about ... but until then we talk and we wait.

Cheers, Rob.

Callous ? Calling names now ? Me less callous or you less bitter ?  I am done with you, bye now. 

[FDEdev 955]

25 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

So exactly how have you benefited from this premature PR campaign? 

And again, I certainly don't think that this was a 'premature PR campain'.  I very much prefer that Microsoft/Asobo are listening to the community instead of simply handing them over a beta version just for troubleshooting another FLIGHT desaster.

 

[RALF9636 1,888]

15 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

So exactly how have you benefited from this premature PR campaign? 

 

This is how I benefited from what you call "premature PR campaign":

- I am happy because I am very much looking forward to the new sim. It's great to see the flight sim world evolving in a massive step forward.

- It is great that the simmers can to a certain degree take part in the development of the new sim because MS / Asobo are actively listening to the simmers feedback.

- I can make informed decisions when it comes to buy addons. I can consider things like:

   - will this addon give me enough value for money even if I only use it one year?

   - can I expect this addon will be ported over to MSFS?

   - can I expect that developer to give me the portover to MSFS for free or at least at a reduced price or will he again charge full price?

- I can make informed decisions when it comes to buy new hardware. I won't buy any new hardware before I know more about how the new sim will work and what kind of hardware it needs.

- I even enjoy P3D more than before. Before I was again and again bothered by all the shortcomings of P3D and wondered "will we have to live with that forever even after that long time of developing the ESP engine?" Now I just take it as it is and say "ok I will tolerate it and enjoy P3D as it is for one more year or so and then let's see what the new sim will bring".

 

[Dominique_K 10,133]

 

23 minutes ago, RALF9636 said:

 

- It is great that the simmers can to a certain degree take part in the development of the new sim because MS / Asobo are actively listening to the simmers feedback.

 

 

I evidently agree with all you and FDEdev said but allow me to complement that. The PR campaign has created a festive spirit in the community that I've never seen before in a release of a game. Simmers have fun waiting for the teasers, discussing them when released,  making suggestions, serious or loony (in the good sense of the word). Their PR/listening campaign is so far a great success.   One of the asset of the campaign is obviously Lionel, Jorg and the gang.  The FS20 forum at Avsim reflects that very much, mostly well behaved, interesting and sometimes quite funny. Fun is not a bad word, right ?

PR is obviously not enough, they got to deliver but one thing at a time. And in the meantime flying these days my T-Duke in P3D ! 

Edited November 19, 2019 by domkle