Be careful what you wish for: a cautionary note

[OzWhitey 3,353]

13 minutes ago, ErichB said:

 I'm pretty shocked at the damning opinions re Avsim as a place to discuss fligthsim.  Perhaps it  has become too much of a niche old boys club - which I hate.    

 

I've spent a lot of time here over the years, but I also spend a fair bit of time elsewhere on the web, including Reddit.

On the rare occasions that r/flightsim comes up on Avsim, people here are very quick to mock it and totally disregard the opinions expressed there. Good on you for actually thinking that we might need to take a bit of a look in the mirror.

I'd encourage everyone to actually read the r/flightsim post dissecting this thread. Yes, it's not very polite, but a little bit of self-reflection never hurt anyone.

[Dominique_K 10,133]

20 minutes ago, ErichB said:

We will always differ on opinion - and that's also fine but I'm pretty shocked at the damning opinions re Avsim as a place to discuss fligthsim.  Perhaps it  has become too much of a niche old boys club - which I hate.    

I have a low tolerance for BS but one of the things I thought was really good about FS2020 is that it brought a lot of new faces to Avsim - which i think it desperately needs.   There is no reason whatsoever why a younger crowd should be separating from an older crowd in discussing flight simulation.  That's actually quite disheartening..

25 years ago (so to speak) I thought that the red hot debates on forums came from the fact that we were young and brash, thinking older people would be mellower. I was wrong. Most people stay the same. It is not a question of age. The millennials vs boomers is a non issue. Both sides have good people and... less good (read obnoxious) people. Millennials will soon learn that.

I do not hate the old boy club mentality if it means having good conversations with good people and I see many examples of that on Avsim. And I am sure on Reddit too.

what I really miss ? More women. They have a different way of seeing things that has always been missing in our hobby. That gal, Elaine, was a good example of that.

Now, back to the thread. When you start a thread like that 

Being short-sighted is one thing, but compounding that with irrationality of thought is, quite simply, stupid in the extreme.

you start a fire, don’t look surprised when it burns the house. Yes, its you Mike. But who hasn’t sinned can throw you the first stone. We are all sinners in that regard, one day or another.

[ErichB 3,637]

4 minutes ago, OzWhitey said:

I've spent a lot of time here over the years, but I also spend a fair bit of time elsewhere on the web, including Reddit.

On the rare occasions that r/flightsim comes up on Avsim, people here are very quick to mock it and totally disregard the opinions expressed there. Good on you for actually thinking that we might need to take a bit of a look in the mirror.

I'd encourage everyone to actually read the r/flightsim post dissecting this thread. Yes, it's not very polite, but a little bit of self-reflection never hurt anyone.

Yh, I have seen your posts over the years - you were quite active years ago.

I think I might spend more time on Reddit myself.  I never really have.  It's just easier to dip into Avsim during the course of the day as our work firewall blocks Reddit access.   

 

 

[SteveW 1,792]

I've been on reddit for ages and it basically looks like AVSIM is far more exciting to a couple of posters there - given the amount of AVSIM posts copied there. But otherwise nothing much different happening to any other sites. Reminds me of the original FSN but that great site really did have massive respect and friendliness offered. There's a handful of guys sending up AVSIM, very funny at times, but getting lame as the repetition of similar jokes thin out. Reminds me of the playground banter at school, funny but faintly ridiculous in the long run as age advances. Mocking older folk, AVSIM, developers and other folk is easy, but trashy. These guys should remember that not only one day they will be old, but also one day they will be mocked for something good they try to do to. What goes around, comes around.

[F737MAX 5,494]

1 hour ago, ErichB said:

We will always differ on opinion - and that's also fine but I'm pretty shocked at the damning opinions re Avsim as a place to discuss fligthsim.  Perhaps it  has become too much of a niche old boys club - which I hate.    

I have a low tolerance for BS but one of the things I thought was really good about FS2020 is that it brought a lot of new faces to Avsim - which i think it desperately needs.   There is no reason whatsoever why a younger crowd should be separating from an older crowd in discussing flight simulation.  That's actually quite disheartening..

Then you might consider apologising for your crass comment from earlier in the thread which sought to create a generational gap:
 

21 hours ago, ErichB said:

It's a generational thing.... they're a younger crowd which is fine. People are very brave on fora behind their keyboards but at the end of the day they're just geeky flighsimmers in need of a gym and healthier diet.    I've been to enough flightsim shows to know they are no-where near as street tough as they sound on Reddit..

Perhaps realise that your anecdotal evidence does not reflect the entire community?
It would not surprise me if others, from any age group, admitted to having a very physically active social life away from flight sim. Mine includes running, cycling and boxing, so I don't have time for flightsim expos. Who knows how many others do likewise?

You're not the only one to have made disparaging remarks about younger people, but your comment was the most egregious.

1 hour ago, domkle said:

Now, back to the thread. When you start a thread like that 

Being short-sighted is one thing, but compounding that with irrationality of thought is, quite simply, stupid in the extreme.

you start a fire, don’t look surprised when it burns the house.

Agreed!
We've had a spate of threads recently which have been based on, at best, faulty logic.
Being opinionated is fine (I'm as guilty of that as anyone), but trashing anyone who doesn't agree with you isn't.
 

Edited November 21, 2019 by F737NG
A sentence needed complet...

[ErichB 3,637]

5 minutes ago, F737NG said:

Mine includes running, cycling and boxing, so I don't have time for flightsim expos. Who knows how many others 

You're not the only one to have made disparaging remarks about younger people, but your comment was the most egregious.

It was abrasive, agree.  Didn't help.  

I have an active sporting life too.  It's all about balance.

Edited November 21, 2019 by ErichB

[Baber20 1,438]

Looks like we have come to a closure. This thread has run its course and I guess its time to lock it down.

[Cruachan 705]

3 hours ago, domkle said:

Now, back to the thread. When you start a thread like that 

Being short-sighted is one thing, but compounding that with irrationality of thought is, quite simply, stupid in the extreme.

you start a fire, don’t look surprised when it burns the house. Yes, its you Mike. But who hasn’t sinned can throw you the first stone. We are all sinners in that regard, one day or another.

I agree and, on reflection, my imprudent choice of language was, indeed, unwise and unwarranted and for that I apologise. It did, however, reflect my strength of feeling surrounding this issue at the time of posting. My hope is that you, and others, can see it in that light.

Regards,

Mike

Edited November 21, 2019 by Cruachan

[Cruachan 705]

3 hours ago, OzWhitey said:

You're the one who started a thread creating this drama and saying everyone had stopped buying add-ons and it was wrong. I've spent at least $1000 on addons since the MS2020 announcement - what have you done to support the developers? If someone else thinks that they're better served by keeping their wallet in their pocket, that's their call. They don't have to buy add-ons - fly default, use freeware, purchase payware - that's up to the individual simmer. Don't guilt trip people because they're not spending money where you think they should.

Hi Oz,

I believe you are paraphrasing what I said. My intent was, and remains, to encourage users to maintain their support, in whatever form, for the 3PD community through what could prove to be a very difficult period ahead. I have never suggested that they should be changing their existing purchasing behaviour nor the freedom to choose their preferred direction.

Wow! I certainly can’t match that level of recent expenditure on Addons! Without any hesitation, I tip my hat to you!

Regards,

Mike

[ErichB 3,637]

It seems fair that the sentiments expressed from both sides of the fence have been done from a very personal view of the current sim environment and in good faith.  Maybe not always eloquently expressed, but nonetheless the points have been clearly noted.

Reading the Reddit comments, and also some here, the bottom line seems to be that people are fed-up of having to throw piles of cash at making a sim look like a something they want to fly.  There is also some resentment at those privileged enough to have piles of cash to throw at P3D, telling others to do the same.  Not everyone is in that position and to be honest, I do agree.  Our sims do need a new baseline - and I'm glad MSFS2020 will bring that - as long as they support third parties to fill the gaps which need filling.  It's up to individuals to support them or not.

Edited November 21, 2019 by ErichB

[chapstick 2,754]

10 minutes ago, Cruachan said:

Hi Oz,

I believe you are paraphrasing what I said. My intent was, and remains, to encourage users to maintain their support, in whatever form, for the 3PD community through what could prove to be a very difficult period ahead. I have never suggested that they should be changing their existing purchasing behaviour nor the freedom to choose their preferred direction.

Wow! I certainly can’t match that level of recent expenditure on Addons! Without any hesitation, I tip my hat to you!

Regards,

Mike

Oh come on. If you’re going to start not one but TWO threads on this topic and write these lengthy diatribes, at least own your argument. You said people who aren’t buying add-ons are hell bent on the destruction of this hobby. Literally page one of this thread. Stop tossing grenades and then telling us we need to come together and “heal,” whatever that means. 

[ErichB 3,637]

11 minutes ago, Chapstick said:

Stop tossing grenades and then telling us we need to come together and “heal,” whatever that means. 

At this point,  I don't care if you're 20, 80, rich or poor.  The grenade fire has been dealt with.  Don't keep fanning the flames.  

Edited November 21, 2019 by ErichB

[SteveW 1,792]

It was a bit of a shame that the news of the new sim came just as some were readying new tools and content. Some nice stuff too. Add-ons are properly done these days. All kinds of quality is still OK because the simulator is open. Anything is good as it adds content and encourages ideas. Make money if you can, that's got to be OK. Stirring up with negative opinions may improve or may hurt sales possibilities, who knows? But maybe that's not so OK.

I hope that with the new sim being pledged as fully open, things turn out for the better for all.

[Cruachan 705]

11 minutes ago, Chapstick said:

If you’re going to start not one but TWO threads on this topic and write these lengthy diatribes, at least own your argument. You said people who aren’t buying add-ons are hell bent on the destruction of this hobby. Literally page one of this thread.

Again, it reflects the passion I hold for a hobby which includes the amazing contributions made by the 3rd Party Developer Community. I do not want to see that disappear anytime soon.

Mike

[Groovy_Kincaid 71]

43 minutes ago, ErichB said:

It seems fair that the sentiments expressed from both sides of the fence have been done from a very personal view of the current sim environment and in good faith.  Maybe not always eloquently expressed, but nonetheless the points have been clearly noted.

Reading the Reddit comments, and also some here, the bottom line seems to be that people are fed-up of having to throw piles of cash at making a sim look like a something they want to fly.  There is also some resentment at those privileged enough to have piles of cash to throw at P3D, telling others to do the same.  Not everyone is in that position and to be honest, I do agree.  Our sims do need a new baseline - and I'm glad MSFS2020 will bring that - as long as they support third parties to fill the gaps which need filling.  It's up to individuals to support them or not.

This is by far, the most intelligent thing written in this entire saga.