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Cruachan

Be careful what you wish for: a cautionary note

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11 hours ago, RALF9636 said:

I do understand the developers point of view and that they have a hard time because of the early announcement.

 

 

As I said before the shot was fired in June and it is futile to hope to catch the bullet to put it back in the gun. That the sales are affected is most probable, no need to play the insider to guess that. It is really unfortunate for the addon sector but as you say, Ralf,  there was no good solution. The user community benefits from it. And it is a lot of fun as shown in MFS forum at Avsim.

SDK or no SDK, the fact is that whole industry is pretty quiet these days, after the first shock in June. Who want to displease the big guy anyway when you have already made the connection with him or have the resources to show that you can be really useful to enhance the product with addons  ? Lets be careful not to make a wailing wall about the future of the 3PD sector from what say a couple of individuals who apparently couldn’t make the connection with MS. 

We will have plenty of stuff to play with at release and soon enough, great products from outsiders after a year or two to keep the interest up. Too optimistic ? Maybe, but hey! better than doomsday scenarios so trendy these days in any walk of life  😁 ! 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Dominique

Simming since 1981 -  4770k@3.7 GHz with 16 GB of RAM and a 1080 with 8 GB VRAM running a 27" @ 2560*1440 - Warthog HOTAS - MFG pedals - MFS Standard version with Steam

 

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On 11/13/2019 at 9:26 AM, Cruachan said:

Hi,

There has been much discussion on the forums surrounding those jaw-dropping videos and images which are forming an integral part of the clever advance publicity campaign promoting ASOBO Studio’s Microsoft Flight Simulator.

As part of these discussions, we are reading again and again of user intentions to abandon financial support for the current 3rd Party Community of Developers by ceasing to purchase their products. Seriously?! Surely it must be obvious what the likely consequences would be? Are we really so hell bent on the destruction of our hobby by suppressing all that talent and enthusiasm? Time for a reality check.

Despite what we have been told there are absolutely no guarantees we can trust MS to encourage ongoing 3rd Party Support and Development by producing an SDK for the new simulator. Indeed, can we trust MS to do anything when their modus operandi is, as always, driven by commercial considerations? 

If we are serious about ceasing support for the existing 3rd Party flight simming industry as we wait for this ‘wonderful’ new all-bells-and-whistles sim sometime in 2020, then we may come to rue the day as we also witness the collapse of our hobby along with all the riches and diversity of choice 3rd Party bring to the table. Come on, is it wise to be committing all our eggs to one basket? Being short-sighted is one thing, but compounding that with irrationality of thought is, quite simply, stupid in the extreme.

Regards,

Mike

Anyone who thinks that the MS sim is going to look like the videos and run on an everyday computer, I've got some waterfront property to sell ya. Ain't gonna happen. I am taking absolutely zero consideration for MS Flight Simulator in any decisions I make. None. I have P3D running beautifully right now and I intend to keep it that way. 

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Agreed.

The thought of another sim doesn't interest me at this time.

Too much good stuff going on right now to concern myself with what may or may not happen in the future.

Thanks to all the devs for their hard work and perseverance through this uncertain time. I'm still amazed at the work you produce at the price you charge. As I mentioned a while back, if there were no P3D updates or additional add ons for a year or two, I'd be just fine. It wasn't that long ago (well, maybe it was) that I was running FlightSim on an Apple II GS with 8mb of ram. Those of us in that club know how good we have it right now. 😀

Cheers,

Mark

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I think it is worth remembering just where we would be in the current flight simulation world without third party addons. I know for a fact that if none were available, I would almost certainly not be involved in flight simulation at all. Living with default P3D is simply not an option.

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Christopher Low

UK2000 Beta Tester

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58 minutes ago, newtie said:

Agreed.

The thought of another sim doesn't interest me at this time.

Too much good stuff going on right now to concern myself with what may or may not happen in the future.

Thanks to all the devs for their hard work and perseverance through this uncertain time. I'm still amazed at the work you produce at the price you charge. As I mentioned a while back, if there were no P3D updates or additional add ons for a year or two, I'd be just fine. It wasn't that long ago (well, maybe it was) that I was running FlightSim on an Apple II GS with 8mb of ram. Those of us in that club know how good we have it right now. 😀

Cheers,

Mark

I begun with a 64k Apple 2C ! What the new sim promises to deliver, Mark, is what what we were dreaming then. I like my P3D loaded with great addons but when I see what FS 20 promises, well I realy look forward to it.  And I also look very much forward to the great addons from outside parties which will come with it.


Dominique

Simming since 1981 -  4770k@3.7 GHz with 16 GB of RAM and a 1080 with 8 GB VRAM running a 27" @ 2560*1440 - Warthog HOTAS - MFG pedals - MFS Standard version with Steam

 

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8 hours ago, domkle said:

The user community benefits from it. And it is a lot of fun as shown in MFS forum at Avsim.

Another wow, that's pretty short sighted ... "lot of fun" ... could you be more callous?  So exactly how have you benefited from this premature PR campaign? 

8 hours ago, domkle said:

Lets be careful not to make a wailing wall about the future of the 3PD sector from what say a couple of individuals who apparently couldn’t make the connection with MS

Wrong, you have no clue what connections we've made.  Until there is something to "not talk about" then it will not be talked about ... but until then we talk and we wait.

Cheers, Rob.

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20 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Another wow, that's pretty short sighted ... "lot of fun" ... could you be more callous?  So exactly how have you benefited from this premature PR campaign? 

Wrong, you have no clue what connections we've made.  Until there is something to "not talk about" then it will not be talked about ... but until then we talk and we wait.

Cheers, Rob.

Callous ? Calling names now ? Me less callous or you less bitter ?  I am done with you, bye now. 

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Dominique

Simming since 1981 -  4770k@3.7 GHz with 16 GB of RAM and a 1080 with 8 GB VRAM running a 27" @ 2560*1440 - Warthog HOTAS - MFG pedals - MFS Standard version with Steam

 

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25 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

So exactly how have you benefited from this premature PR campaign? 

And again, I certainly don't think that this was a 'premature PR campain'.  I very much prefer that Microsoft/Asobo are listening to the community instead of simply handing them over a beta version just for troubleshooting another FLIGHT desaster.

 

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15 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

So exactly how have you benefited from this premature PR campaign? 

 

This is how I benefited from what you call "premature PR campaign":

- I am happy because I am very much looking forward to the new sim. It's great to see the flight sim world evolving in a massive step forward.

- It is great that the simmers can to a certain degree take part in the development of the new sim because MS / Asobo are actively listening to the simmers feedback.

- I can make informed decisions when it comes to buy addons. I can consider things like:

   - will this addon give me enough value for money even if I only use it one year?

   - can I expect this addon will be ported over to MSFS?

   - can I expect that developer to give me the portover to MSFS for free or at least at a reduced price or will he again charge full price?

- I can make informed decisions when it comes to buy new hardware. I won't buy any new hardware before I know more about how the new sim will work and what kind of hardware it needs.

- I even enjoy P3D more than before. Before I was again and again bothered by all the shortcomings of P3D and wondered "will we have to live with that forever even after that long time of developing the ESP engine?" Now I just take it as it is and say "ok I will tolerate it and enjoy P3D as it is for one more year or so and then let's see what the new sim will bring".

 

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23 minutes ago, RALF9636 said:

 

- It is great that the simmers can to a certain degree take part in the development of the new sim because MS / Asobo are actively listening to the simmers feedback.

 

 

I evidently agree with all you and FDEdev said but allow me to complement that. The PR campaign has created a festive spirit in the community that I've never seen before in a release of a game. Simmers have fun waiting for the teasers, discussing them when released,  making suggestions, serious or loony (in the good sense of the word). Their PR/listening campaign is so far a great success.   One of the asset of the campaign is obviously Lionel, Jorg and the gang.  The FS20 forum at Avsim reflects that very much, mostly well behaved, interesting and sometimes quite funny. Fun is not a bad word, right ?

PR is obviously not enough, they got to deliver but one thing at a time. And in the meantime flying these days my T-Duke in P3D ! 

Edited by domkle
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Dominique

Simming since 1981 -  4770k@3.7 GHz with 16 GB of RAM and a 1080 with 8 GB VRAM running a 27" @ 2560*1440 - Warthog HOTAS - MFG pedals - MFS Standard version with Steam

 

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And you need 18+ months for this?  Wouldn't 1-3 months prior to actual release be just as good from a consumer perspective? 

How do you know a "port over" is even possible? 

How would you know the amount work/expense involved IF a port was possible?

Has anyone confirmed it's a 64bit or 32bit process?

Where is the SDK?

Million more questions about this product that remain unknown.

You see what I'm getting at, so many questions, so few answers ... this isn't a benefit for anyone but it does bring about lots of speculation, wants, desires, conflict, that just isn't helpful to anyone at this early stage in the game.  I do see your points from a consumer planning perspective, but 18 months of "planning" seems like a stretch  ... on a developer side 18 months is great IF we had an SDK we could start the process of providing content ... but, no SDK, no product, nothing, just an announcement in June and some pics and videos and emails saying "soon" ... "we're close" ... etc.

Dominique is correct, the shot was fired and it hit some targets but why?  Agree, there is no putting the bullet back ... so developers die from the shot fired so consumers can plan a distant future?  Can you feel the love, glad we sorted that out.  

Cheers, Rob.

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If I made add-ons for P3D I’d be more angry at LM for letting the sim stagnate. Two lame patches this year. No innovation. When new features are added, they’re bugged or perform horribly. P3D is in a coma.  No wonder a new development has caught people’s attention so easily.

Edited by Chapstick

-Alex 

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As someone also stated, it's not quite so simple as announcement prior to release date, but also they're trying to generate interest for the community to participate in alpha testing. 

Edited by Kevin_28

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33 minutes ago, RALF9636 said:

- It is great that the simmers can to a certain degree take part in the development of the new sim because MS / Asobo are actively listening to the simmers feedback.

Agreed. We are given to understand that MS/ASOBO are monitoring these forums and are keen to interact with their prospective user base. That being so, should we not expect that something is said to allay all the genuine, heart-felt concerns expressed in this thread? It is within their power to make or break their product and currently their silence is accomplishing nothing that could be interpreted as being positive. All it does is raise suspicions as to their true motives.

I want this project to succeed as much as the next person. All it would take is a few moments to explain what is happening regarding the MSFS2020 SDK. Is it too much to ask that, as a gesture of goodwill, they reassure existing 3rd Party Developers that they still have a fighting chance to survive through this turbulent period?

Regards,

Mike

 

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My rig: ASUS ROG Rampage V Extreme, i7-5960X (Dynamic OC 4.6 GHz - all cores, HT=ON, AM=21845), Corsair Hydro Series H110i GT Cooler with 2xNoctua NF-A14 PWM 140mm fans, G.SKILL Ripjaws 4 series 16GB (4 x 4GB) DDR4 3000, ASUS GTX 1080Ti ROG STRIX 11GB, GDDR5X (Driver versions: 441.66 (Win7), 472.12 (Win10)), Samsung 850 EVO 1TB SSD x4, Samsung 970 EVO 2TB V-NAND M.2, LG BH16NS40 16x SATA Internal BDRW, EVGA 1200 P2 Watt PSU, Cooler Master HAF X, ASUS ROG Swift PG278Q (G-Sync) monitor at 120Hz. Oculus Rift. Dual Boot: Windows 10 Pro 64bit (2004) / Prepar3D v5.1.12.26829, Windows 7 Pro 64bit / Prepar3D v4.5.12.30293.

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I will be one of the first to purchase MSFS , but ....

my current P3D looks great and I already use PR scenery only + custom AG. And as I use 2 pc’s in a WidevieW network, I will not be able to use that same setup at MSFS release. And perhaps it will never be possible ...

Surely the sky/Clouds look better in MSFS , but LM will also improve P3D.

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Gerard

7940x ( 14 cores ) : 14 cores @ 4.7 - Gigabyte X299 Gaming 7 - 32 Gb G.Skill Trident Z 3200Mhz Cl 14 - Inno3D RTX3090 X4 iCHILL 24 Gb - 1x SSD M2 1800/1800 2TB - 2x  Sata 600 SSD 500 Mb - Thermaltake Level 10 GT case - EKWB Extreme 240 liquid cooling set push/pull - 2x 43” Sony 4K tv's in NVSurround

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My flightsim vids :  https://www.youtube.com/user/fswidesim/videos?shelf_id=0&sort=dd&view=0

 

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