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Cruachan

Be careful what you wish for: a cautionary note

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32 minutes ago, Speedbird 217 said:

It's a unique situation, because while I and many others are very grateful for all those third party addons, the need for a lot of them is only created by the countless flaws in our core simulator, which - despite what some say - dates back to the early 2000s. Don't get me wrong, it's amazing what LM have done with P3D, but it's a bit like a 737MAX - we are at a point where there's so much lipstick on a pig that we can't plug all those holes any longer. A lot of the third party developers' bread & butter is plugging those holes with their software, so it's quite frankly normal they don't like that shiny new next gen A350 or whatever in the form of MS20. Because it removes the market for them to sell all those hole plugs...

I love my sim, but it also drives me crazy. For every one flight where everything goes to plan, everything looks nice and is immersive, nothing hangs/crashes/doesn't do what it's supposed to do there's another 9 flights were something goes wrong. And with that I mean one of the 10+ addons I have running in the background does somethings silly, something in sim looks bad or glitchy totally killing the immersion or the fact that I even have to run all those things in the background causing the sim platform to crash and leave me frustrated halfway through my flight. Again, I'm grateful there are all those things I can run in the background, but as a consumer I shouldn't have to! Why do I have to purchase an addon to fix time zones that are wrong in the core sim? Why another one to dynamically manage the FTFF so I can actually fly into big airports on top notch hardware without seeing a slideshow on reasonable settings? Why another one to simulate something resembling ATC? And why do I need half a dozen addons alone just to make it look acceptable via shaders, textures, effects, cameras and whatnot. Not to mention all the time spent on researching, purchasing, installing, setting up, updating and maintaining all those different tools.

My hopes for the new sim are that it embraces current technology and provides a good enough experience out of the box. Does that mean there's no need for addons? Absolutely not! I am convinced we will still want more detailled airport sceneries and aircraft - good news for any scenery developer and the big aircraft studios. Weather? Maybe the standard engine does the job, but I'm sure there's more that can be done with it. That's ok. What I don't want is a dozen apps fixing things, running in the background at all times and causing instability because the core software is so stretched to its limits and flawed that I cannot enjoy it otherwise. So all those developers currently providing things that will probably be redundant will just have to find another way to add value to the new sim or find something else to do.

I for one am quite impressed by the open approach Microsoft have chosen for this, and without them we wouldn't have a flight simulator to begin with.

And you think MS2020 won't have holes to plug// Dream on!!!!


Bob Cardone         MSFS 2020     PMDG DC6  JF Arrow, Carenado Seminole , Mooney

TrackIR   Avliasoft EFB2    ATC  by PF3    FlyVirtual.net  CLX PC

 

 

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I'm sorry but this is the business market. If there's a far better, cheaper product that doesn't require me to install 50 paid add-ons just to have the ground look nicer or weather to look better or feel more realistic when I'm flying. I'm jumping

They have had it for so long that they are literally complaining about competition now. Why did they not expect their $100+ addons to hold up forever.

Flight simming has needed competition for so long and as much as people disagree, their tantrums prove that a wake-up call was required.

Time for a reality check, welcome back to the real world, competition exists, things will charge. Were not here to personally support your hobby we're here to invest in a product that we believe is better than the current one. Like the rest of the planet with pretty much every good and service.

Edited by teflocarbon
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The new sim doesn't even have a precise release date yet and many are already speaking as if it was on life support. Avsim being Avsim, I guess.

All I want is for Microsoft to give me a good base sim with a nice lineup of "default" jets/props for a start. I will gladly pay for that, be it one time or subscription based.

Addon makers willing to charge me almost 3 or 4 times the price of the base sim can wait. "PrOfEsSiOnAl" addon, "PrOfEsSiOnAl" prices.

Thankfully freeware developpers do exist too.

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Kilo60,

That is very interesting. Can you possibly point me to the link which positively states VR IS included as opposed to "will or maybe included"

I do not have VR, as much as I would love it, but I am very supportive for those who do have it. Whilst there was a lot of hoohaa about its inclusion, I have noted that MSFS/Osobo are aware of its impact on the FS community. However, nowhere, have I seen a positive and straight forward statement that it is actually included for the Release of this platform.

Regardless, despite acknowledging a sharp watch on all our comments, we have no actual statement from MS or Osobo that anything (other than their unstated programmes) is going to be included.  As far as I know, apart from the videos and screenshots, nothing has been stated about quality and complexity of systems in the aircraft or airports etc. To my mind, I have to throw a large percentage of my lot in with Rob Ainscough, mainly because all we have really seen is advertising and a somewhat devious method of going about that advertising with little or no regard for its negative impact on the community.  There is no point, however, in not acknowledging the huge positive impact it is having.

Also, whilst I am concerned for the lack of sales for the Developers, and also concerned about the release timings/MSFS sales and advertising tactics I am very much looking forward to this release some time in the future. As, indeed, I am looking forward to P3D and XPlane new releases.  Unfortunately, for this old pensioner, they will all get my pension dollars.

Developers can certainly look forward to a general, and I believe, temporary paucity in sales for all platforms. There is a future for those who can withstand the impact of MSFS2020 and I am sincerely praying for them to survive in total.

If they can hold out, it will be a win, win, win for all of us.

Regards

Tony

 


Tony Chilcott.

 

My System. Motherboard. ASRock Taichi X570 CPU Ryzen 9 3900x (not yet overclocked). RAM 32gb Corsair Vengeance (2x16) 3200mhz. 1 x Gigabyte Aorus GTX1080ti Extreme and a 1200watt PSU.

1 x 1tb SSD 3 x 240BG SSD and 4 x 2TB HDD

OS Win 10 Pro 64bit. Simulators ... FS2004/P3Dv4.5/Xplane.DCS/Aeroflyfs2...MSFS to come for sure.

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Kilo60,

That is very interesting. Can you possibly point me to the link which positively states VR IS included as opposed to "will or maybe included"

I do not have VR, as much as I would love it, but I am very supportive for those who do have it. Whilst there was a lot of hoohaa about its inclusion, I have noted that MSFS/Osobo are aware of its impact on the FS community. However, nowhere, have I seen a positive and straight forward statement that it is actually included for the Release of this platform.

Regardless, despite acknowledging a sharp watch on all our comments, we have no actual statement from MS or Osobo that anything (other than their unstated programmes) is going to be included.  As far as I know, apart from the videos and screenshots, nothing has been stated about quality and complexity of systems in the aircraft or airports etc. To my mind, I have to throw a large percentage of my lot in with Rob Ainscough, mainly because all we have really seen is advertising and a somewhat devious method of going about that advertising with little or no regard for its negative impact on the community.  There is no point, however, in not acknowledging the huge positive impact it is having.

Also, whilst I am concerned for the lack of sales for the Developers, and also concerned about the release timings/MSFS sales and advertising tactics I am very much looking forward to this release some time in the future. As, indeed, I am looking forward to P3D and XPlane new releases.  Unfortunately, for this old pensioner, they will all get my pension dollars.

Developers can certainly look forward to a general, and I believe, temporary paucity in sales for all platforms. There is a future for those who can withstand the impact of MSFS2020 and I am sincerely praying for them to survive in total.

If they can hold out, it will be a win, win, win for all of us.

Regards

Tony

 


Tony Chilcott.

 

My System. Motherboard. ASRock Taichi X570 CPU Ryzen 9 3900x (not yet overclocked). RAM 32gb Corsair Vengeance (2x16) 3200mhz. 1 x Gigabyte Aorus GTX1080ti Extreme and a 1200watt PSU.

1 x 1tb SSD 3 x 240BG SSD and 4 x 2TB HDD

OS Win 10 Pro 64bit. Simulators ... FS2004/P3Dv4.5/Xplane.DCS/Aeroflyfs2...MSFS to come for sure.

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On 11/13/2019 at 8:26 AM, Cruachan said:

As part of these discussions, we are reading again and again of user intentions to abandon financial support for the current 3rd Party Community of Developers by ceasing to purchase their products. Seriously?!

It's a free market.

The whole FSX/P3D scene has gone towards monetization and hasn't looked back. If the 3rd party aftermarket implodes, then that shows how unhealthy our scene actually is without the strong freeware core it once had. At least with X-Plane, the freeware scene is alive and thriving, driven by a passion for the hobby rather than profit margins, and wouldn't necessarily collapse.

If a bunch of payware developers turn belly up as a result, then that's the market at work. If MSFS is a word not allowed-fest, then the payware market will likely rebound (assuming it declines at all by people holding out on purchasing).

That's the invisible hand at work. I personally won't shed a tear if the whole scene goes under. That's business.

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Daniel Moser

 

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3 hours ago, simbol said:

Don't you find it crazy they anounced their simulator just after the FSexpo show finished? They could have attended it.. And share the news with us...

Wow dude are you serious? Maybe you should slide off that entitled horse of yours. People are still crying about this? From a marketing perspective, making the announcement at E3 was a smart move. We all got to hear about it didn't we? This says ZERO about what their commitment is going to be like. 

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Yeah. We have to wait a bit. If they deliver a rocking flight simulator, essentially an open vehicle for add-on ingenuity, there could be endless potential for DLC and tools. And so they will be saviours. Perhaps developers must look forward to a more profitable time after a period riding an inevitable wave of uncertainty and disorder within the add-on development and monetisation ecosystem. So let's see how things pan out.

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Steve Waite: Engineer at codelegend.com

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The only reason the payware market exists is because the default simulator was designed in 2006, and lacked a lot features that can be achieved by modern hardware. And this being a niche hobby without much competition, have allowed payware developers to charge whatever price they like. 

On 11/15/2019 at 4:25 PM, fta2017 said:

Finally, we should think about what is being shown by MS in their videos. They are being very selective in terms of only showing photogrammetry cities, of which Jorg Neumann today told IGN there are only "400 or so". He then also said there are "1.5 million cities globally" but conveniently none of them have been shown without the nice photogrammetry (I think only London has been but they cleverly only showed it at near-dusk without revealing the lack of 3D data).

Please tell me how many cities with good level of detail exist in the default P3D ? I'll tell you, none. I'll happily get what I can from the default sim without having to spend any additional money. If add-on developers want to keep making money, they'll just have to step up their game.

To quote from another forum, 

Quote

I am going to go ahead and say it.... The 3rd party add on market is garbage. With very few exceptions 3rd party add-ons are radically overpriced, poorly supported, often left incomplete, and very poorly maintained.

I want MS to put in place strict standards on 3rd party add-ons. I want testing standards, support commitments etc. and I want them to only work though the MS store where compatibility can be enforced, and products removed if the developer doesn't fix their add ons. No more garbage like WT3, or word not allowed devs like Carenado who ship incomplete planes and then just abandon them.

I absolutely am DONE buying anything payware from anyone until FS2020 comes out, and then I will be very picky about what I buy and from who, and I will no longer pay outrageous prices.

 

Edited by ninerwhiskey9W

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6 hours ago, Speedbird 217 said:

It's a unique situation, because while I and many others are very grateful for all those third party addons, the need for a lot of them is only created by the countless flaws in our core simulator, which - despite what some say - dates back to the early 2000s. Don't get me wrong, it's amazing what LM have done with P3D, but it's a bit like a 737MAX - we are at a point where there's so much lipstick on a pig that we can't plug all those holes any longer. A lot of the third party developers' bread & butter is plugging those holes with their software, so it's quite frankly normal they don't like that shiny new next gen A350 or whatever in the form of MS20. Because it removes the market for them to sell all those hole plugs...

I love my sim, but it also drives me crazy. For every one flight where everything goes to plan, everything looks nice and is immersive, nothing hangs/crashes/doesn't do what it's supposed to do there's another 9 flights were something goes wrong. And with that I mean one of the 10+ addons I have running in the background does somethings silly, something in sim looks bad or glitchy totally killing the immersion or the fact that I even have to run all those things in the background causing the sim platform to crash and leave me frustrated halfway through my flight. Again, I'm grateful there are all those things I can run in the background, but as a consumer I shouldn't have to! Why do I have to purchase an addon to fix time zones that are wrong in the core sim? Why another one to dynamically manage the FTFF so I can actually fly into big airports on top notch hardware without seeing a slideshow on reasonable settings? Why another one to simulate something resembling ATC? And why do I need half a dozen addons alone just to make it look acceptable via shaders, textures, effects, cameras and whatnot. Not to mention all the time spent on researching, purchasing, installing, setting up, updating and maintaining all those different tools.

My hopes for the new sim are that it embraces current technology and provides a good enough experience out of the box. Does that mean there's no need for addons? Absolutely not! I am convinced we will still want more detailled airport sceneries and aircraft - good news for any scenery developer and the big aircraft studios. Weather? Maybe the standard engine does the job, but I'm sure there's more that can be done with it. That's ok. What I don't want is a dozen apps fixing things, running in the background at all times and causing instability because the core software is so stretched to its limits and flawed that I cannot enjoy it otherwise. So all those developers currently providing things that will probably be redundant will just have to find another way to add value to the new sim or find something else to do.

I for one am quite impressed by the open approach Microsoft have chosen for this, and without them we wouldn't have a flight simulator to begin with.

It looks like you are having issues with your config.

Here I never had to reinstall Windows or P3D. I am running a lot of scenery addons and utility addons and no issues at all. Two view pc’s in Wideview and flights up to 4h or 10h of planespotting at a heavy airport with Real Life traffic, it is all working perfectly...So for me P3D is as stable as a house...

Why addons like FFTF Dynamic or Time Zone Fixer ? Because we want better performance and more realism than the out of the box Sim.  You can fly with just a few scenery addons ..

If you really think that this new Flightsim is the answer then be prepared to adjust your view : loading all those photo tiles costs a lot of performance. MS already has said that if the tiles cannot be loaded fast enough then it will revert to lower resolutions. And the faster you fly the harder it gets. So for that you need a very fast IN connection at one end ( probably 200-300 mb at least ) and a very fast pc at the other end... 

Let me see a jet flying with 250 knots at 5000 ft in heavy real weather in MSFS with 0.50 p/m PR scenery + custom AG over a large city + AI traffic (!)....
 

Is your pc /IN connection capable of showing that smooth you think ?

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Gerard

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7 hours ago, Speedbird 217 said:

by the countless flaws in our core simulator, which - despite what some say - dates back to the early 2000s.

One of the urban myths we can't get rid of. The ESP engine was rewritten in huge chunks for P3D, forget this "old code" tale.

Forget it quick, because ASOBO said their MSFS2020 is also based on FSX 😉

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System: i9 9900k@4.9 - 32 GB RAM - Aorus 1080ti --- Sim/Addons: P3D v5 + ProSim737
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Kilo60,

That is very interesting. Can you possibly point me to the link which positively states VR IS included as opposed to "will or maybe included"

I do not have VR, as much as I would love it, but I am very supportive for those who do have it. Whilst there was a lot of hoohaa about its inclusion, I have noted that MSFS/Osobo are aware of its impact on the FS community. However, nowhere, have I seen a positive and straight forward statement that it is actually included for the Release of this platform.

Regardless, despite acknowledging a sharp watch on all our comments, we have no actual statement from MS or Osobo that anything (other than their unstated programmes) is going to be included.  As far as I know, apart from the videos and screenshots, nothing has been stated about quality and complexity of systems in the aircraft or airports etc. To my mind, I have to throw a large percentage of my lot in with Rob Ainscough, mainly because all we have really seen is advertising and a somewhat devious method of going about that advertising with little or no regard for its negative impact on the community.  There is no point, however, in not acknowledging the huge positive impact it is having.

Also, whilst I am concerned for the lack of sales for the Developers, and also concerned about the release timings/MSFS sales and advertising tactics I am very much looking forward to this release some time in the future. As, indeed, I am looking forward to P3D and XPlane new releases.  Unfortunately, for this old pensioner, they will all get my pension dollars.

Developers can certainly look forward to a general, and I believe, temporary paucity in sales for all platforms. There is a future for those who can withstand the impact of MSFS2020 and I am sincerely praying for them to survive in total.

If they can hold out, it will be a win, win, win for all of us.

Regards

Tony

 

  • Upvote 1

Tony Chilcott.

 

My System. Motherboard. ASRock Taichi X570 CPU Ryzen 9 3900x (not yet overclocked). RAM 32gb Corsair Vengeance (2x16) 3200mhz. 1 x Gigabyte Aorus GTX1080ti Extreme and a 1200watt PSU.

1 x 1tb SSD 3 x 240BG SSD and 4 x 2TB HDD

OS Win 10 Pro 64bit. Simulators ... FS2004/P3Dv4.5/Xplane.DCS/Aeroflyfs2...MSFS to come for sure.

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6 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

And you think MS2020 won't have holes to plug// Dream on!!!!

Did you even read my post? I’m clearly saying there will most likely still be scope for enhancements, like detailed aircraft and airport scenery addons.

But to keep with the naval references, if everything goes well those enhancements will be some racing stripes on the side or a golden anchor chain, not bucket upon bucket to keep the whole thing from sinking because the hull has more holes than a Swiss cheese...

I really cannot fathom all this negativity in here. Just seems there’s no pleasing some. Shouldn’t this be a massive opportunity if you’re a developer? I have said this before, this is generating some significant mainstream media coverage and it will be released as a state of the art platform by a renowned software company which without, funny enough, we wouldn’t even have the sim this forum is about.

There is lots of potential for a much bigger market once this goes live, as new and younger people get involved that just don’t fancy installing an essentially decades old sim which then requires thousands of pounds in investment to make it look just about acceptable and may or may not let you complete a flight without frustration. If you have a strong addon product then this should be great news to Mr Developer (more people to sell to) and in turn great news to the customer.

The only reason to explain some of the behaviours here is that of course this has the potential to upset the market, make it easier for new, talented entrants to start developing as well as they don’t need to understand a jurassic core platform with all its intricacies and then code something with a hundred workarounds to make it function in the sim. A bigger market also means it becomes more attractive to developers that today don’t take notice or don’t care enough to get involved. More competition means developers need to up their game and cannot charge ridiculous amounts of money for addons that shouldn’t be required in the first place anymore. So yeah, I guess you can see why developers don’t like this.

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Max

i9 9900K @5GHz | Gigabyte Aorus Z390 Ultra | 32GB Gskill 3200C14 | Palit GTX 1080Ti Super Jetstream

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By the way fellow simmers, do you like better Asobo large interaction with us for several months before release or a P3Dv5 team wrapped in a total silence except for a small group of happy few self-proclaimed experts  ?  

Yes, me too.


 

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Dominique

Simming since 1981 -  4770k@3.7 GHz with 16 GB of RAM and a 1080 with 8 GB VRAM running a 27" @ 2560*1440 - Warthog HOTAS - MFG pedals - MFS Standard version with Steam

 

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