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Cruachan

Be careful what you wish for: a cautionary note

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6 minutes ago, Sethos said:

. Though I also agree with the overall sentiment of this thread having run its course,  

Heated and robust exchanges (sometimes excessive). I do think as the last posters that it has run its course but you will see it resurface. Mike opened the same thread in the FS20 forum, btw...

On this FS20 forum, I made a translation of what the Asobo CEO said in his French interview about  what they see as a ecosystem in construction in which at the end the core team would have but a small part to play . 


Dominique

Simming since 1981 -  4770k@3.7 GHz with 16 GB of RAM and a 1080 with 8 GB VRAM running a 27" @ 2560*1440 - Warthog HOTAS - MFG pedals - MFS Standard version with Steam

 

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3 hours ago, cepact said:

thanks to this topic Avsim made the front page on reddit again, further degrading its reputation. I won't send a link because it's filled with nasty words 

That about sums up the standards of behaviour on such sites and really should be ignored. This is just overt opportunism exhibited by those that enjoy putting others down. I suspect it has more to do with jealousy and ill-disguised agendas than serious comment about what is truly happening here. Contrast such postings with the content and etiquette exhibited (mostly) by the membership here at AVSIM. 

What we have been witnessing in this thread and it’s sibling over on the MFS forum is, in the main, a mature and extended spirited debate between passionate individuals who hold very different views and opinions. AVSIM is one of the few forums on the Internet where this can occur these days. There have been no Moderator interventions and the membership have been allowed to speak freely. Most have demonstrated respect and courtesy towards their fellow simmers and have been able to voice their points of view without censorship. This is healthy and we should feel great pride in being members of a community where this is encouraged.

A few have dared to suggest that the content of some posts, including mine I presume, have seemed negative in tone and intended to impede the success of MSFS2020. Such assertions are misguided and could not be further from the truth. Instead I would hope, partisan allegiances aside, that we are all sharing in the desire to be part of facilitating the success of every major new flight sim platform. Can we not join in spirit by doing what we can to ensure continuing 3rd Party survival and their future participation in this success? Long established purchasing practices will always be a matter for each individual and no one is expecting that to change. However, making the radical choice to cease all purchasing at this moment in time while posting to encourage others to follow suit is really unhelpful.

Regards,

Mike

 

 

 

 

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I suggest we move all of these non-add-on-buying radical terrorists into detention camps and force them to buy every Carenado product. 

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-Alex 

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Those that have cleared their PCs of flight simulators in anticipation, are definitely doing one thing - not flying. Not continuing with ingesting useful or desirable addons is like waiting for a better lunch menu. I've continued as normal with developments and use of the sims. There are those still using FSX for all it is worth, popular use of P3D and FSX will continue for some time to come.

 

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Steve Waite: Engineer at codelegend.com

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Wow. This thread is a complete dumpster fire I don't even know where to start.

Firstly, yes, it's true. Avsim has an extremely poor reputation around the internet, even in my small but close group of flight simming friends (for what it's worth we're all in our mid-late 20s). When there's a small, vocal group of older users who are consistently condescending to those younger (even in this thread LMAO) then what do you expect. I honestly can't wait for the next generation to take over once MSFS2020 comes out, and hopefully this hobby can be modernized in its practices and attitude.

It doesn't help when there are post like these that sound cult like in their support for developers when, let's be really clear, 90% of them are abusing the nicheness of this hobby with poor support, high prices and a general holier than thou attitude. I'm not naming anybody but you know who you are. Let me be clear- not all developers are like this and I have a lot of respect for those who are genuinely passionate about flying and the community, and I hope they are well supported into the transition to FS2020. But the 3rd party FS community is quite poor compared to other niche products and overly hostile to each other.

There's no hiding that the flightsim community as a whole has become bloated, negative and hostile. The best thing I can hope for is MSFS2020 'draining the swamp' and allowing those who truly care about the product and flying to thrive, rather than continuing to be negative to new hobbyists and enabling people who are out to make a quick buck at the expense of us users.

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5 hours ago, Cruachan said:

What we have been witnessing in this thread and it’s sibling over on the MFS forum is, in the main, a mature and extended spirited debate between passionate individuals who hold very different views and opinions.

Nah, I'm with Reddit on this one. This thread is a trainwreck.

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Rob

Sim rig: Intel Core i9 9900K @ 5GHz, Asus ROG Maximus XI Code, MSI 2080 Ti, GSkill DDR4 32 GB, NZXT Kraken. 

Current sims: P3D v5, MSFS, X-plane 11, Aerofly FS2 and DCS. 

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"There are three simple rules for making a smooth landing. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are."

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7 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

Didn't I hear the same kind of comments about P3D/XP's demise many months ago when simmers  were waiting for the Sim that would change the world to be released, FSW? I thought I did??????

I never read anyone claiming this, in fact it was getting bad reviews as soon as it was released.

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1 hour ago, OzWhitey said:

Nah, I'm with Reddit on this one. This thread is a trainwreck.

Then, ask yourself why? Why is there no desire to work towards achieving a meeting of minds? Why all the antagonism to reasonable argument? Why the insistence that somehow you feel pressurised to continue support for 3rd Party Development when you have decided that it is no longer relevant? In short, why are you bothering to post here at all when, quite evidently, you are resolved to follow a different path?

Quite clearly this thread was not for you nor, indeed, for others who are like-minded. Instead, it was intended for those simmers who may have been sitting on the fence and are reading posts that seem to be encouraging the cessation of purchases from any 3rd Party Developer since to do so with MSFS2020 on the horizon would be financially irresponsible. Ignore the fact that it may be some time before the new sim is RTM. Ignore P3D by labelling it as dead instead of acknowledging that it is still very much in the frame and continues to benefit from work invested by an active and enthusiastic 3PD community. Rejoice in the damage caused by the consequent fall off in sales revenue. Spread messages of hate and criticism knowing that others will support you. Seriously, by any stretch can such an uncompromising attitude be regarded as being helpful?

Time for moderation, co-operation and an atmosphere of reasonableness to return. Only then can there be some healing between us as we look forward to what could be an exciting flight simming future together.

Regards,

Mike

 

 

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I upped your post mike because I think that I get the gist of your idea. Which I think more or less says, that in a time of crisis, there's a need to take care about comments so as not to make matters worse for anyone. No matter who they are. Throw away comments can sway opinion whether right or wrong. Seems OK here.

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Steve Waite: Engineer at codelegend.com

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1 hour ago, Cruachan said:

Why all the antagonism to reasonable argument? 

...posts that seem to be encouraging the cessation of purchases from any 3rd Party Developer

...Rejoice in the damage

...Spread messages of hate

...can such an uncompromising attitude be regarded as being helpful?

Apologies, but in what respect are these elements of reasonable argument?

1 hour ago, Cruachan said:

Time for moderation, co-operation and an atmosphere of reasonableness to return.

That would be nice.

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Alan Ampolsk

"Ah, Paula, they are firing at me!"
-- Saint-Exupery

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And today I will be making a nice flight again ...

Enjoy P3D and when MSFS comes out we’ll see. All these new info also it’s influence on the current Flightsim developers for making theirs even better...

As MSFS is based on FSX the only thing I am wondering is : again a 1 core main thread sim ? ... 😳

https://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/content.php?19990-X019-Interview-with-Asobo-Studio

Edited by GSalden

Gerard

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10 hours ago, Cruachan said:

Time for moderation, co-operation and an atmosphere of reasonableness to return. Only then can there be some healing between us as we look forward to what could be an exciting flight simming future together.

We will always differ on opinion - and that's also fine but I'm pretty shocked at the damning opinions re Avsim as a place to discuss fligthsim.  Perhaps it  has become too much of a niche old boys club - which I hate.    

I have a low tolerance for BS but one of the things I thought was really good about FS2020 is that it brought a lot of new faces to Avsim - which i think it desperately needs.   There is no reason whatsoever why a younger crowd should be separating from an older crowd in discussing flight simulation.  That's actually quite disheartening..

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10 hours ago, Cruachan said:

 

"Why all the antagonism to reasonable argument? Why the insistence that somehow you feel pressurised to continue support for 3rd Party Development when you have decided that it is no longer relevant? In short, why are you bothering to post here at all when, quite evidently, you are resolved to follow a different path"

Ha, I don't think I've ever seen so many straw man arguments in one post! 

That was my first post in this thread, bruh, and it was like 2 sentences long. 

re: "Quite clearly this thread was not for you nor, indeed, for others who are like-minded." - well, it's kind of for me, I guess. I just spent an hour reading every page of the thread to see if it lived up to it's growing reputation elsewhere on the web. Seems that it does.

re: "Rejoice in the damage caused by the consequent fall off in sales revenue." yeah, nah - don't think I or pretty much anyone else is doing that. You're the one who started a thread creating this drama and saying everyone had stopped buying add-ons and it was wrong. I've spent at least $1000 on addons since the MS2020 announcement - what have you done to support the developers? If someone else thinks that they're better served by keeping their wallet in their pocket, that's their call. They don't have to buy add-ons - fly default, use freeware, purchase payware - that's up to the individual simmer. Don't guilt trip people because they're not spending money where you think they should.

 "Spread messages of hate and criticism knowing that others will support you. Seriously, by any stretch can such an uncompromising attitude be regarded as being helpful?" Uh, you'll have to remind me which of my two sentences was "spreading hate".

"Time for moderation, co-operation and an atmosphere of reasonableness to return. Only then can there be some healing between us as we look forward to what could be an exciting flight simming future together." Dramatic, much?

Look, I admit I was wrong saying that this thread was a trainwreck.

It's more like a plane crash into an oil tanker that causes a tsumani that destroys a nuclear power plant. 🙂

Tl; DR: MS2020 looks amazing, P3D is still here and simmers (including me) will buy add-ons if the product is good enough.

Cheers!

 

 

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Rob

Sim rig: Intel Core i9 9900K @ 5GHz, Asus ROG Maximus XI Code, MSI 2080 Ti, GSkill DDR4 32 GB, NZXT Kraken. 

Current sims: P3D v5, MSFS, X-plane 11, Aerofly FS2 and DCS. 

 xdQCeNi.jpg   puHyX98.jpg

"There are three simple rules for making a smooth landing. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are."

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13 minutes ago, ErichB said:

 I'm pretty shocked at the damning opinions re Avsim as a place to discuss fligthsim.  Perhaps it  has become too much of a niche old boys club - which I hate.    

 

I've spent a lot of time here over the years, but I also spend a fair bit of time elsewhere on the web, including Reddit.

On the rare occasions that r/flightsim comes up on Avsim, people here are very quick to mock it and totally disregard the opinions expressed there. Good on you for actually thinking that we might need to take a bit of a look in the mirror.

I'd encourage everyone to actually read the r/flightsim post dissecting this thread. Yes, it's not very polite, but a little bit of self-reflection never hurt anyone.

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Rob

Sim rig: Intel Core i9 9900K @ 5GHz, Asus ROG Maximus XI Code, MSI 2080 Ti, GSkill DDR4 32 GB, NZXT Kraken. 

Current sims: P3D v5, MSFS, X-plane 11, Aerofly FS2 and DCS. 

 xdQCeNi.jpg   puHyX98.jpg

"There are three simple rules for making a smooth landing. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are."

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20 minutes ago, ErichB said:

We will always differ on opinion - and that's also fine but I'm pretty shocked at the damning opinions re Avsim as a place to discuss fligthsim.  Perhaps it  has become too much of a niche old boys club - which I hate.    

I have a low tolerance for BS but one of the things I thought was really good about FS2020 is that it brought a lot of new faces to Avsim - which i think it desperately needs.   There is no reason whatsoever why a younger crowd should be separating from an older crowd in discussing flight simulation.  That's actually quite disheartening..

25 years ago (so to speak) I thought that the red hot debates on forums came from the fact that we were young and brash, thinking older people would be mellower. I was wrong. Most people stay the same. It is not a question of age. The millennials vs boomers is a non issue. Both sides have good people and... less good (read obnoxious) people. Millennials will soon learn that.

I do not hate the old boy club mentality if it means having good conversations with good people and I see many examples of that on Avsim. And I am sure on Reddit too.

what I really miss ? More women. They have a different way of seeing things that has always been missing in our hobby. That gal, Elaine, was a good example of that.

Now, back to the thread. When you start a thread like that 

Being short-sighted is one thing, but compounding that with irrationality of thought is, quite simply, stupid in the extreme.

you start a fire, don’t look surprised when it burns the house. Yes, its you Mike. But who hasn’t sinned can throw you the first stone. We are all sinners in that regard, one day or another.

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Dominique

Simming since 1981 -  4770k@3.7 GHz with 16 GB of RAM and a 1080 with 8 GB VRAM running a 27" @ 2560*1440 - Warthog HOTAS - MFG pedals - MFS Standard version with Steam

 

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