Dear Navigraph User,

[Ray Proudfoot 8,950]

2 minutes ago, skelsey said:

I understand your point of view but I think you're missing the point I was making slightly: I am guessing (and it is just a guess) that the driver for the change is that the navdata is now what is costing Navigraph large amounts of money, not the charts. In other words -- maybe the Charts customers were actually paying for FMS data that they don't necessarily need, and in doing so subsidising cheap subscriptions for those of us who were on FMS data only.

Simon, if they'd explained that was the reason instead of the patronising tripe they posted in the email I could understand although a 300% price rise suggests they have taken their finger off the pulse in allowing things to go so bad. I have no idea how many subscribe to each package. But at a monthly flight sim meeting I attended today one chap was paying for the Charts package but hardly ever used it. He's now going to reconsider.

I don't know if they going to make a further public comment after last evening's post. I was asked to explain why I don't need their charts package and pointed them to the Aivlasoft site. Not heard anything back since then. Surely they must be aware there are alternatives to their charts package that only requires AIRAC FMS data. And if the hard work is in formatting the raw data to make it acceptable to the many addons they support then they should be saying that.

[dal330200 216]

I had a moment last night when I was weighing the pros and cons of paying for navigraph services monthly too...but at the end of the day, we get so much, and it's not that expensive (cheaper than say Netflix or Amazon), so I kept it going.  I primarily fly the Zibo and use every feature in Avitab, so for me to install all those charts manually would be a tedious process.  So, for the monthly fee, everything's there and ready to go.  I'm not defending or criticizing Navigraph for this decision, just that at the end of the day, I feel that its still worth it for me.

[dal330200 216]

6 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Looking at Aerosoft's NavDataPro it covers all the software I use with the exception of Hi-Fi Active Sky and a specialist Concorde flight utility. Cost? 31 Euros for 13 datasets compared to 90 Euros from Navigraph.

https://www.aerosoft.com/en/flight-simulation/flight-simulator-2004/tools-missions/1750/navdatapro-one-year-subscription-13-datasets

I shall be switching unless Navigraph reverse their decision. I imagine all FMS Data subscribers will too.

I forgot all about that- That is a good alternative, but I also use charts, so Navigraph is still the best option for me.  Those of you who don't use charts, you don't know what you're missing in terms of convenience and ease of access to information at your fingertips. 

Edited November 16, 2019 by dal330200

[kentat 2]

Navigraph have the right to do what they want. I have the right to unsubscribe. I unsubscribed today. Bye Navigraph.

[Pitter 23]

I also  received this mail. I do not need charts from Navigraph. Mine coming free of charge from the net.

If they change the pricing to this new level, I will be a new customer with Aerosoft.

Peter

[skelsey 765]

7 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

I was asked to explain why I don't need their charts package and pointed them to the Aivlasoft site. Not heard anything back since then. Surely they must be aware there are alternatives to their charts package that only requires AIRAC FMS data. And if the hard work is in formatting the raw data to make it acceptable to the many addons they support then they should be saying that.

I can make no comment on the way that Navigraph have chosen to present the change, but Aivlasoft EFB is actually probably an excellent example of why I suspect the tables have turned.

20/30 years ago, charts would have more or less literally been drawn and printed, or gradually as time progressed converted to electronic format and distributed fundamentally as straightforward images. Hence Navigraph/Aerosoft would have purchased and been sent PDF copies of the charts to then distribute.

Nowadays, especially with the focus on EFBs and 'smart' charts with georeferencing, the ability to declutter information at various zoom levels etc, a chart is simply a visual presentation of the navigation data -- fundamentally it's no different to the FMS data at all, it's just that the chart presents the data in human-readable format whereas the FMS data is in a machine-readable format. The value therefore, and what Jeppesen will be charging a premium for, is the data, not the chart itself which is just a presentation of it (as you know yourself - Aivlasoft are basically doing exactly what Jeppesen are probably doing at source to create their charts). I wouldn't be suprised if Jeppesen simply provide Navigraph with a raw database and then most of the charts themselves are parsed and created from that at Navigraph's end, along with the FMS data files. Essentially, you are paying for the data and the charts created from that data are being thrown in.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,950]

9 minutes ago, dal330200 said:

I forgot all about that- That is a good alternative, but I also use charts, so Navigraph is still the best option for me.  Those of you who don't use charts, you don't know what you're missing in terms of convenience and ease of access to information at your fingertips. 

I take it you've not heard of Aivlasoft Electronic Flight Bag then? Once purchased for around 52GBP the only additional expense is a FMS Data subscription. That was around 25GBP from Navigraph and after I switch to NavDataPro it will remain the same. So after 5 years ny costs will be 52 + (5 * 25) = 177GBP.

Now consider your outlay for Navigraph Charts. 75GBP per year for five years = 375GBP.

EFB has all the required data to produce charts for both airways, SIDs, STARs and airport layouts including runway, taxiways and parking positions. And that is using your scenery data, not generic.

By all means carry on paying 200GBP over five years with very little change in the data. For example, Manchester Airport (EGCC) last changed runway designators around 2006 and SIDs around five years ago. But user pay for the same data time and time again. I will with my NavDataPro subscription but at 25GBP a year that is bearable.

Oh, one final thing. I run EFB on a separate PC via SimConnect on a 27" 2560*1440 display. Rather better than the tiddly display on virtual cockpit EFBs.

[qqwertz 781]

Looks like there aren't just a few left who only subscribed to FMS data. I have many months left and will wait until I have to renew before making a decision. Having said that, I always wanted to give the Aerosoft data a try, and this decision may just give me the incentive to do so.

Peter

[Tony P 160]

Anyone know if NavDataPro works with ProAtcX ?

>>  Nevermind - just read the ProAtcX manual and they do accept NavDataPro.  <sweet>

I'm also switching once my subscription is over next March.  

Edited November 16, 2019 by Tony P

[Twenty6 692]

For reference as of AIRAC 1911:

The following add-ons are supported by NavDataPro:

• 777 Worldliner Professional/Extended for X-Plane, XPlane 11
• Aerosoft A318/A319/A320/A321 professional for Prepar3D V4
• Aerosoft A318/A319/A320/A321 for FSX, Prepar3D
• Aerosoft Airbus X Extended/Standard for FSX, Prepar3D
• aeroSystem 737 Avionics
• AivlaSoft EFB  for FSX, Prepar3D
• AivlaSoft EFB v2.0 for FSX, Prepar3D
• Boeing 757 Professional/Extended for X-Plane
• CaptainSim 757/767 FSX for Prepar3D, FS2004
• Carenado S550 Citation II HD SERIES for FSX, Prepar3D
• Digital Aviation CRJ 700-900 for FSX, P3D
• Digital Aviation Piper Cheyenne for FSX, Prepar3D, FS2004
• EADT KLN 90B
• Eaglesoft Cessna Citation for FSX, Prepar3D, FS2004
• EFASS Electronic Flight Assistant
• Eurowings Professional for FS2004
• FJCC UNIVERSAL FMC for X-Plane 10, XPlane 11
• Flight1 ATR72, BN2-Islander, C182T, Fokker, Mustang, Super80 Professional for FSX, Prepar3D, FS2004
• FlightFactor A320 for XPlane 11
• FlightSim Commander for FSX, Prepar3D
• FS Navigator for FS2004
• FSCaptain for FSX, Prepar3D, FS2004
• FSBuild 2.4
• FS-FlightControl for FSX, Prepar3D
• FSiPanel
• FSLabs A320-X for FSX, Prepar3D
• FsXPand FSX - Flyware for FSX, Prepar3D, FS2004
• Global Air Traffic Control
• Ideal Flight 10
• iFly 737NG, 747-400 for FSX, Prepar3D, FS2004
• iGoDispatch for X-Plane
• Integrated Simavionics for FSX, Prepar3D, FS2004
• IXEG 737 for X-Plane
• JARDesign A320neo, A330 for X-Plane10, XPlane 11
• JeeHellWare
• JRollon Planes CRJ200 for X-Plane 10, XPlane 11
• Level-D 767 for FSX, Prepar3D, FS2004
• MaddogX for FSX, Prepar3D
• Majestic Software Dash 8-Q400 for FSX, Prepar3D
• FsXPand  - Flyware for FSX, Prepar3D, FS2004
• Pilot2ATC
• PMDG alle Produkte FSX for Prepar3D, FS2004
• Pointsoft PRO-ATC/X
• Professional Flight Planner X for FSX, Prepar3D
• Prosim737, ProsimA320
• PSS Boeing 777, A330, A340 for FS2004
• QualityWings 757, 787, Jumbolino for FSX, Prepar3D, FS2004
• Rotate MD-80 for X-Plane 10, XPlane 11
• Sim-Avionics Flightdeck Avionics for FSX, Prepar3D, FS2004
• Simcheck A300B4-200 FMC for FSX, Prepar3D
• SimLauncherX for FSX, Prepar3D
• STMA Aircraft for XPlane 11
• SSG Boeing 748i for X-Plane 10, XPlane 11
• TuneVNAV Descent Pro3
• vasFMC
• Wilco/Feelthere 737/777, Airbus, CitationX, Embraer E-Jets v.2, Legacy for FSX, Prepar3D, FS2004
• x737project for X-Plane 10, XPlane 11
• X-Crafts Embraer E-195 v2.0 for X-Plane 10, XPlane 11
• X-FMC
• X-Plane 10
• X-Plane GNS 430/530
• XPlane 11

Other add-ons will follow in the near future.

___________________________________________________

Active Sky is missing but I never really knew why they had a dataset in the first place.

Here's to hoping Navigraph is reading this (and other) threads about their questionable change in subscription. No doubt Aerosoft is already drooling at the prospect of raises and Christmas bonuses with the sudden increase of business.

Edit: CaptainSim 777 is also missing but probably an oversight.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Twenty6
added CS777 ?

[Ray Proudfoot 8,950]

@Twenty6, yes, I often wondered why I needed to update my weather program. The PMDG entry appears to be in German. Could anyone translate this entry please? Hopefully it means all PMDG CDUs can be updated....

• PMDG alle Produkte FSX for Prepar3D, FS2004

[jabloomf1230 2,445]

If anyone is interested, I started a poll to see how many people use each flightplan data and chart options:

 

[speedyTC 195]

22 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

 You can carry on using Photoshop with no loss of functionality. I cannot carry on using frozen data because eventually it will become close to useless.

Maybe Microsoft’s new sim will mean we will have an alternative data source. Navigraph are treading on dangerous ground with this decision.

Therein lies the crux of my decision not to continue with the CC service Adobe offered. Once you're in you are more or less forced to continue. If you do decide to cancel the CC subscription you are no longer able to use the CC version of PS which means you also lose access to your own files. Quite mind boggling.

Microsoft's new sim wil certainly stir up the waters. I had mentioned in an earlier post that, to my eye, there will be a number of "add-on" products that will be hit hard. Namely the "global" stuff we use. Global scenery. Mesh. Weather programmes. Texture engines. As you say, perhaps the new sim will integrate an AIRAC source for those who want/need it. There is much uncertainty right now and even more speculation. It will be interesting to see how it all shapes up once the dust settles.

However, to get back on topic, I am convinced that voting with our wallets is the best way to nudge developers in a different direction.

Cheers 🍺

[Ray Proudfoot 8,950]

@speedyTC, a lot of water has passed under the bridge since yesterday. NavDataPro looks the likely replacement for 30€.

As for Adobe I bought Elements outright which gives me all the functionality I need. This “hiring” of software is not something I would ever want to get into for the very reasons you mention. Not far short of daylight robbery.

As for MFS20 who knows how it will impact on the 3rd party market. I’ve always thought that market produced superior products to the default aircraft etc. Long may it continue.

[qqwertz 781]

4 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

@Twenty6, yes, I often wondered why I needed to update my weather program. The PMDG entry appears to be in German. Could anyone translate this entry please? Hopefully it means all PMDG CDUs can be updated....

• PMDG alle Produkte FSX for Prepar3D, FS2004

PMDG all products for FSX, P3D, FS9