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Guest beana51

Should we go back to the moon?

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Guest Shalomar

Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!If such an order had been given, it would have been the ultra-comprehensive technical data and manufacturing tooling that would have been destroyed. This would have been done, if it was, to prevent other entities (enemies) from building their own. Remember Piper Aircraft ceased production of certain models when their tooling was lost in a flood? It's a major part of the expense of manufacturing.According to a reliable source, Kelly Johnson's successor at the Skunk Works, the order was given in regards to the SR-71. There are still some of those around too. But there won't be any more unless a program to develop it starts almost from scratch; considerably more difficult. "Reverse Engineering", well, you still have to figure out the tequniques and create the tooling.I don't know if the ability to make Saturn V components was deliberately destroyed. But it's a common practice for advanced aircraft with implications for National security that are retired, (No further need for spare parts on our part) and just cuz completed components were not destroyed doesn't mean the tooling and crucuial data collected while building them still exists.Best Regards, Donny:-wave

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Guest Shalomar

Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!Wonder where you got the knoweledge, were you there?:-) Unmanned probes accomplish far more for less cost beyond orbit. We can practice living in space in orbit, and the things that only humans can do are more justified by the cost there.I never said the space program should be abandoned, in fact I said the opposite. But even in the atmosphere, caring for a human crew and passengers is a major expense in weight and cost.Yes, go on with a viable replacement for the Shuttle. But no matter how advanced, you are still going to have to accelerate a lot of weight thru a thick atmosphere to thousands of miles an hour to even think about going beyond orbit. Reusable technology is improving to get to orbit, a good first step. But once there's an elevator, a complete possibility according to the basic laws of physics, it will take far less energy to get to orbit. Then let the colonization begin. Till then space travel will be almost exclusively the domain of those who devote their entire lives to it and the affluent adventure tourist types. If colonization and pleasure trips come into play, corporations should be the driving force. And NASA should collaborate with them if they invent a better mousetrap.Imagine for a second if the U.S. Federal Government had been directing the colonization of the West? We'd have major cities close to the Missisipi and maybe outposts on the California coast.Best Regards, Donny:-)

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The North Star will not be around forever, that's a well known fact.Even if the heavens weren't to change because of the shifting of the stars (due to simple stellar mechanics) that particular star will at some point burn out.Energy limits though are pretty constant.While I agree we may find ways to travel FTL, getting there will remain tricky. It would have to involve some hitherto unknown science allowing a craft to move from a speed at some point below c to another speed some point beyond c without passing through c (where c is of course the speed of light) and back again as the limits to accelleration would work in reverse at FTL speeds, requiring ever higher energy to decellerate towards c in direct relation to the energy needed to accellerate to c from below c.Some call this transition hyperspace, a concept that. though not theoretically impossible, is beyond the current range of scientific understanding.

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You're still thinking only of exploration and of hauling every up through the earth's gravity well.That's not the way forward. The way forward is large colonies in space, taking care of mining and construction efforts at a system-wide scale (or at least as far out as the asteroid belt).These colonies could be spun for artificial gravity, so the main problem of living in space which is bone decomposition because of the lack of gravity would be eliminated (or at least greatly reduced, a lower bone mass might develop if colonies elect to generate less than 1 g of gravity).At that point space could provide energy aplenty for the earth from solar powerplants in orbit, the energy beamed down to receivers on the planet surface, finally eliminating altogether the need for fossile fuels and nuclear fission.They could also provide for all needs of minerals and other natural resources for the entire system, eliminating the need for mining and polluting industry on the planet surface.And they'd be able to take up the excess population of the planet, reducing population pressure on natural resources like food, water, and living space, thereby eliminating most all reasons for conflict on the planet.When they feel the system is getting too crowded, they can set sail for faraway stars, becoming our Noah's arc, safeguarding the future of the human race even if some catastrophe of massive scale affected the entire solar system, wiping it all out.I may think big, but I also think longterm. If we want to prevent the human race from becoming extinct we have to keep sending people into space and colonise the place, prepare to expand beyond the cradle that is this solar system with its familiar yellow/white star which has shone upon us for hundreds of generations.That event which destroys the system may be billions of years away, but if we stop now with the colonisation of space which is just beginning we're going to be penned up forever on the surface of this planet.We'll have lost the will and the ability to ever venture forth from the cradle, ensuring that the cradle will be our grave.We'll again be cowering in horror at the night sky overhead, fearing that which may come down out of it and take us all, just like our forefathers in the stone age were afraid of falling stars, thinking they were bad omens (racial memory from early MEEs?).Even if we're lucky and a cometary impact doesn't wipe us out, we'll soon run out of natural resources and be unable to get out there because there won't be anything left to build spaceships and their engines out of, nor anything to fuel them.And neither will there be people willing and able to pilot those ships to gather those resources needed to start a new space program from scratch, all the while wondering why their ancient ancestors chose to abandon space except for sending a few robots to bring back pictures from the other planets, pictures that did nothing except excite the press but didn't provide minerals and metals, didn't create living space and relieve polution.

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Guest beana51

Hi again,and again I can not disagree with you. I think of the unknown future, but,of course todays facts and rules must be adhered to ,until!! I'm not sure of the visual heavens we see now.Using that rate as the limit, then these lights we see,really may not be there any longer.If things are hundreds of millions of light years away?,and they are still hearing signals from the big bang? Thats when I realize I don't know nutting,and get disorentieted..Those thoughts are humbling!Others tell us these things.I respect them with much admiration.Sure they disagree as we do on these forums.But the answers do come out, if for now,only to be reconsidered latter.I still think we got a long way to go on that evolutionary trip.Its like giving my very smart dog a book about rabbits! That heavenly book of knowledge may be staring us right in our face,with all the intelligence we seek,but we can't recognize it,our currant senses are not up to the task.Just like that dog,I guess.But as we know there are many books! "DON'T WORRY, BE HAPPY" REGARDS VIN

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Guest Shalomar

Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!Um, wouldn't it be a lot more feasible to go down for our energy? Methane seeps on the ocean floor or drill to a depth that water turns to steam, maybe an alochohol mix which can increase the efficiency of steam driven turbines. Maintenance would be a heck of a lot easier! And as I said, we know more about the surface of the moon than the Pacific basin it came from. So what makes you so sure we can't get resourses there? Or that going to the moon for them makes more sense?Let's not confuse the romantic lure of spaceflight and real answers to the challenges we face as a species. We should get out of here and trash another system? If we can't live in this ideal ecosystem... Even if we put solar power plants in orbit, we are still talking about orbit. My original point, again, was that I don't see the point- or benefit of sending men beyond it for a while.I am all for the colonization of space. But it ain't gonna happen as long as it takes so much fuel to get to orbit. So we can practice in space stations and maintenance of systems to benefit mankind (like being able to watch Survivor around the world;( ) it will not be that long in human terms before there is an elevator that gets stuff and people to orbit at a cost ratio that rivals airline travel in the long run. Soon as "supercarbon" filaments come of age, which are being actively sought after by the building industry.Best Regards, Donny:-wave

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Guest beana51

Hi Donny, Like I indicated before ,all here are correct.All the thoughts are clear,and well spoken. Its nice to get into the mechanics of this subject. Often in doing so, the much bigger picture gets a bit blurry.In this case the mission,or the real goal.What is our goal?Is it to explore?,Is it to search for resources?Are we looking just for today,or next week,or even for next year?Are we thinking this like "THIS OLE HOUSE"?Lets fix it,its cheaper.Regarding the direction of the human race.If we were guarantied an unchanging celestial environment,well, then we can pause.Indulge in the luxury of travel,manage our ever growing population,food,disease, no problem,a kinda of Soylent Green thing.But its not ,nor was it ever.The universe is huge,we live in the milky way,a neighborhood in the suburbs of the Galaxy,We are spinning,the Galaxy is spinning,more than grains of sand on all the beaches on earth,they tell us are the number of Galaxy's out there.All,moving out and away from each other.Our life experience may be unique,I think not.I believe life is all over the universe.Extinction can happen in a wink,and no one will ever know the human race even existed,like that tree in the deep forest,when it falls who hears it?...And it may be this little ship Earth needs some life boats.Our history being,culture has to have the ability to continue and be a living,growing, thing.Not talking mass migration here, but rather a representation of our genes,chromosomes,the stuff of life,to be saved as a seeds for future life,somewhere. The human form of life must survive.I get carried away here,I must apologize all.Man looks for immortality.However we are subject to the yet unknown laws of the universe.For many,and rightly so the answers are clear.Evolution has brought us from those furry creatures doging the dinosaur's ponderous-feet ,our ancestors, to where we are now.It was not that Long ago,even the Neanderthal people were around longer than we have been to date.They did not make it.Its still going on,how we continue to evolve depends on our survival and longevity as a species.If its here on earth ,fine,if it has to be some other place?,well ,I hope we will be ready. Regards Donny! VIN :-laugh1

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Guest Charlie

Interesting reading

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>Donny AKA Shalomar>Fly 2 ROCKS!!!>>Um, wouldn't it be a lot more feasible to go down for our>energy? Methane seeps on the ocean floor or drill to a depth>that water turns to steam, maybe an alochohol mix which canShort term, maybe. Long term, certainly not.It seeps up, but it's a finite supply.>increase the efficiency of steam driven turbines. Maintenance>would be a heck of a lot easier! And as I said, we know moreOnce you're established up there maintenance is a breeze. Certainly a lot easier 200 miles up than even half a mile down.Just look at the incredible lengths oil companies have to go to to do maintenance and repair work on drilling rigs even in a mere 100 meters of water...>from. So what makes you so sure we can't get resourses there?We can get resources there, but they'll run out and will likely end up costing more resources to extract than we pull up.>Or that going to the moon for them makes more sense?>The moon as I said doesn't make sense, we should bypass any rock with a noticable gravity well (meaning more than a tenth of a g or so).>Let's not confuse the romantic lure of spaceflight and real>answers to the challenges we face as a species. We should get>out of here and trash another system? If we can't live in this>ideal ecosystem... >Nothing romantic, just practical.>Even if we put solar power plants in orbit, we are still>talking about orbit. My original point, again, was that I>don't see the point- or benefit of sending men beyond it for a>while.>If we give up sending people now we'll forever remember we abandoned space because we were afraid of going up there.And yes, that will be the reason. The Apollo crews accepted that they had a risk of being blown to bits sitting on their big piles of explosives they called rockets.Today we cancel a launch if there's a disagreement between 2 of the 5 or more computers about a parameter even if that parameter according to all of them is well within safe margins. We're so afraid of taking risks that we're indeed cowering in our caves and shaking angry fists at the thundergods.>I am all for the colonization of space. But it ain't gonna>happen as long as it takes so much fuel to get to orbit. So weIt will never take less fuel to get up there, which is why we should make sure that we can remain there indefinitely and not have to return to earth to get supplies every week or so.>world;( ) it will not be that long in human terms before there>is an elevator that gets stuff and people to orbit at a costIf we abandon spacetravel, that elevator will never be built as there will be no need to.A few satelites every year can be put up by rockets, but will not be put up by a space elevator.Only if there's a booming economy up there will there be economic incentives to undertake a long and expensive construction cycle for such a mechanism.And that requires people who live up there, have kids there who want to see the planet from down there, and people down here who want to go to a luxury resort up there.It will require trade between people living up and people living down, a need to transport goods between orbit and surface at a rate higher than the occasional replacement Inmarsat or GPS bird.>ratio that rivals airline travel in the long run. Soon asIf we'd abandoned civilian airtravel in the 1920s because it was too risky and expensive with an attitude "let's wait until it gets cheaper and then try again" it would never have gotten cheaper.In fact today there'd be only a bit of military air traffic and maybe some high value cargo going by air and that would be it.Your analogy instead completely contradicts your own statements...

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>>Donny AKA Shalomar>Fly 2 ROCKS!!!>>Wonder where you got the knoweledge, were you there?:-) >Best Regards, Donny:-) Don't be silly please?It is all there, in a book which is a compilation of classified information called 'Beyond Top Secret' by Timothy Good.Read it, you will be more enlightened.Dave T. .........On the lovely warm Devon Riviera and active 'FlightSim User's Group' member at http://www.flightsimgrpuk.free-online.co.uk/


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No need to apologise Vin, you're mostly preaching to the choir after all (who knows, maybe we true believers in the longterm view can bring about our fallen brother Donny and have him see the light).The human race has for all its history sent its best out far and wide to explore new frontiers and settle those frontiers for others.Yet in the 1970s that suddenly stopped dead in its tracks and an attitude of extreme caution in every human endeavour took over.I now see that that time was basically the end of innovation and exploration everywhere. While there have been incremental changes and increases to human knowledge and technology, for 30 years now there has been no real groundbreaking advance anywhere, no fundamental discoveries.We've become stupified, almost petrified, in the cocoon of luxury and safety we have built around ourselves.So petrified in fact that anything that exposes the fact that there's something outside that cocoon is denied and if that's not possible attacked and stamped out.That way lies the end, like petrified fossils we'll become something for future archeologists to wonder over.Except those archeologist won't be humans.This is not a state I can accept if I can do something to change it.I've always stated clearly that I'll vollunteer for the first interstellar exploration mission even if it's a one-way ticket.I'll go further, I'll be among the first to emigrate to space if such becomes possible and I'm found qualified (medical and professional qualifications will be strict initially).It will be dangerous, life will likely lack many of the homely comforts we're used to by now, but it's vital for the survival of the species and therefore something that must be done.

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Guest beana51

Hi, and Hello,again. Yes I do apologize. Sometimes we see things in fast forward.Yelling the sky is falling is not valid any more.In a doubting Thomas society, many,intelligent,people have more immediate problems to consider.And who's to blame them.If I remember correctly,the Great Gen.Douglas MacArthur,in his farewell speech at West Point,when referring to the future,and as an old soldier,knowing he won't be around much longer,spoke of an exciting times of future conflicts,a united earth, against the forces of an intergalactic origin.Well,maby the OLE guy was dreaming a bit. But it must have been on his mind.Why would this Ole solider from a far different world we live in think that? The General died in 1964.The star wars thing was yet to come.In any event,I will continue to enjoy every day that comes my way.I know at at any time life can end,in many ways,for any one..I think of the many yet to be born generations of humans.How will they handle their destiny?Will they just capitulate to the laws of the universe? Will they become extinct?Man is the only animal,so far who can change their environment.I hope that human quality accelerates. Nice chatting with you jwenting,and thanks to Donny, for a good question, and to our host for the soap box! VIN CIAO!

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Guest beana51

Last time ,promise!.You and Donny may appreciate this.I had to refresh my memory RE:the Generals speech. He gave this Duty,Honor,Country, speech on may 12 1962. In Thayer Hall, at West Point.An old solider, that day,without the benefit of prepared notes,frail,weak, but with a strong ,vibrant,visionary, mind.He goes on to say amongest other things to the assembled cadets, "You now face a new world,a world of change.The thrust into outer space of the satellite,spheres,and missiles,marks a beginning of another epoch in the long story of mankind.In the five or more billions of years,the scientists tell us it has taken to form the earth,in the three or more billion years of development of the human race,there has never been a more abrupt or staggering evolution. We deal now,not with things not of this world alone,but with the illimitable distance and as yet unfathomed mysteries of the universe.We are reaching out for a new and boundless frontier.We speak in strange terms of harnessing the cosmic energy,of making winds and tides work for us,of creating unheard of synthetic materials to supplement or even replace our old standred basics,to purify sea water for our drink,of mining the ocean floors for new fields of wealth and food,of disease preventatives to expand life into the hundred of years,of controlling the weather for more equitable distribution of heat and cold,rain and shine,of space ships to the moon,of the primary target in war no longer limited to the armed forces of an enemy,but instead to include his civil populations,of ultimate conflict between a united human race and the sinister forces of some other planetary galaxy,of such dreams and fantasies as to make life the most exciting of all times" This was a very emotional speech he gave to cadets at West Point that day.I heard it soon after it was given.Never forgot it. Should you get a chance,look it up? Its very interesting! Again Thanx VIN

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It was political. People somewhere didn't want the competition the proven technology of Saturn/Apollo provided to derail the overly complex and already over budget and underperforming Shuttle project.At the time the Shuttle had already been downgraded from an SSTO (which had proven overly ambitious) to a 2 stage design with part of the craft being discarded.The payload had also been descreased, and cost per pound to launch increased dramatically from the original design goals.In other words, the Shuttle looked to be going to fail.If the forces that be wanted to build it anyway there would have to be no viable alternative to maintain a manned space program without it, which means Saturn/Apollo HAD to go in such a way it could not be revived at a lesser cost than the remaining estimated cost of the SSTS.That meant the design documents, rigging, tooling, everything had to go.Whether that decision was made at NASA level or government level doesn't matter, it was political.

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