Unrest in the Sim Community

[Scottoest 1,561]

4 hours ago, Max50 said:

I think there are two groups.

1. Those who are happy with their current sims and need MSFS to prove itself.

2. Those who are desperate for a new sim and look at MSFS as being something incredible.

All there is to it.

I'm sure both of these groups exist, but I've seen some hostility towards Microsoft generally, and MSFS specifically, that goes well beyond it "needing to prove itself".

[irrics 1,517]

20 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

Developers kept the MS platform alive and their/our rewards was a PR campaign that took us all by surprise ... 6 months later and still nothing delivered.  Timing is key.

Developing for the MS platform was a choice made by every third party and there should be no expectation of any "rewards" for doing so, even over an extended period of time.  Also, that arrangement was known in advance of outlaying a single penny of development money.

MS left the space.  

Third party developers didn't really keep anything "alive" that actually benefited MS in the time they were gone.  Third party add-ons have benefited the end users, but not MS or the core MSFS product.  

Edited December 2, 2019 by irrics

[tjstreak 53]

5 hours ago, Sethos said:

Heh, I think you are a prime example of what the original post is referring to. 

Sorry, I have been misled by the very excited users in the flightsim community too many times.  I tend to discount claims made by the very excited users.

Maybe these claims will prove to be correct.  Maybe not.  Time will tell.

God save us from the very excited users!

Edited December 2, 2019 by tjstreak

[SpiritFlyer 987]

25 minutes ago, tjstreak said:

Sorry, I have been misled by the very excited users in the flightsim community too many times.  I tend to discount claims made by the very excited users.

Maybe these claims will prove to be correct.  Maybe not.  Time will tell.

God save us from the very excited users!

Now there is a real doubting Thomas! 

[virtuali 4,419]

I cannot obviously speak for other developers but I couldn't be more excited about the new MSFS, both from a technical point of view, but even more from a commercial point of view.

A new sim from Microsoft, after 14 years, has been one of the best news we ever heard. It would bring back many people that abandoned the hobby after the demise of ACES, and will hopefully get the interest of a whole new generation of users. My oldest son, at 12, wasn't even born when FSX came out, and he already plays with the likes of Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen. FSX would look old to him, but the new MSFS it's a different story,

Now, in Mac circles, there's a saying which is "Sherlocked", no need to explain this, if you don't know what it means, just google it.

So, clearly, it's possible that some companies might feel to have been "Sherlocked" by Microsoft, but that's just inevitable. You can't ( and you shouldn't ) base your whole business model on the very shaky grounds of patching up the simulator shortcomings, and assume it would stay like that forever.

IP is the most important asset any company has, and this is especially true in gaming ( yes, MSFS is still a game ), where most major companies are struggling to create their own IP, because licensing ( Star Wars, etc. ) can be lucrative, but it's is very expensive and it's risky. And MS needs exclusive content you can't find on Playstation or Nintendo, and Flight Simulator is exactly that. 

If anybody assumed that MS would just drop their valuable IP and Flight Simulator brand *FOREVER*, that's delusional. The only question was WHEN, not IF they would eventually bring it back.

We didn't want to make any announcements about how exactly future compatibility with the new MSFS would be handled in our products, not before being absolutely sure of how much work will require. I think we have a fairly good track record adapting to the new sim, lots of our users bought a scenery for FS9, and are still using it in P3D4 without having to pay anything extra. We always thought it was in our best interest to EASE users moving to the next platform, because this is always a win-win for everybody involved.

From the few interactions we had with both MS and Asobo after the announcement, I can safely say they are on the right track, very committed, and are open to suggestions, we really can't ask for more. Exciting times are ahead.

Edited December 2, 2019 by virtuali

[irrics 1,517]

1 hour ago, virtuali said:

You can't ( and you shouldn't ) base your whole business model on the very shaky grounds of patching up the simulator shortcomings, and assume it would stay like that forever.

Some of the wisest words spoken on this forum in quite a long while..

[NZ255 309]

Giving some developers a heads up months ahead of a global announcement would’ve been too risky perhaps. I’m sure they’ve all signed an NDA before but you can’t really backtrack leaks about a product. 

Edited December 2, 2019 by NZ255

[Scottoest 1,561]

12 hours ago, virtuali said:

I cannot obviously speak for other developers but I couldn't be more excited about the new MSFS, both from a technical point of view, but for even more for a commercial point of view.

I think one big thing some 3PDs don't fully understand yet, is what a massive commercial boon MSFS is likely to be for them, assuming it mostly delivers on the promise we've seen thus far.

Being on Game Pass, means MSFS is probably going to have several million users - with the opportunity to convert some percentage of those people into enthusiastic new long-term users of the platform.  It's going to garner a ton of mainstream media attention and preview articles.  It's going to fuel a ton of peripheral sales.

But Game Pass is the big thing.  No cost for entry (besides the subscription itself), and an eventual console port opening MSFS (and third party add-ons) to a massive new userbase to whom they can sell their wares.

I think there will be a shaking out and adjustment period - for example, I suspect a casual newcomer will probably blanche at the concept of paying $140 for a single plane, in their $60 sim that included 15+ out of the box.  But maybe volume sales expectations allow PMDG to adjust their prices (lol!), or companies like PMDG will be given the opportunity to explain exactly what their extremely detailed work offers, that you can't get with those default aircraft.

I also think some eyes are going to be opened as to exactly how Microsoft, and the Xbox folks specifically, have changed a lot in the last decade.  Phil Spencer (head of the Xbox Division), has really championed a lot of pro-consumer initiatives.  He's presided over the creation of Game Pass.  He pushed "Play Anywhere" (buy a digital Microsoft game once, and get it for both PC and Xbox).  He's led their new effort into the PC gaming space, with stuff like Age of Empires and Flight Simulator.  He has a team dedicated to providing free backward compatibility for previous Xbox consoles - something Sony and Nintendo both don't offer.

According to people in the room, it was Phil Spencer who saw the demo reel for what would become the new Flight Simulator, and said "if we are going to do this again, we have to be in it for the long haul".

Spencer seems like a really good guy, and he's exactly who you want deciding the future of a new Flight Simulator.

Edited December 2, 2019 by n4gix
REMOVED EXCESSIVE QUOTE!!! Please stop quoting the entire post you are replying to!

[vin747 316]

All the other sims that we have had so far served us well and kept us alive during the many years of hardship in the desert. 

But MSFS is THE promised land! 

We can finally say, we have arrived.. 

[Sesquashtoo 2,846]

1 hour ago, vin747 said:

All the other sims that we have had so far served us well and kept us alive during the many years of hardship in the desert. 

But MSFS is THE promised land! 

We can finally say, we have arrived.. 

If the hype and 'here's what we are doing' vids,match the RTM,..then this will be the Total Capsule flight sim, that I had hoped for from as far back as 1984.  Until then, XP11 and the latest nVidia driver suite with that fabulous new Sharpening filter, does nicely.  At this junction, I am a happy sim camper. With the new driver Sharpening feature active, XP11 (latest), with the use of Ortho4XP and Orbx T.E,   now looks truly to the eye, like real life optics.

If the RTM of MSFS 2020 delivers the technology (visual output) as rendered to the screen....I probably will start running XP11 and P3D 4.x less and less, to finally perhaps archive them to a MyBook.  I guess we are mere months away from finding all out, for ourselves....

Edited December 2, 2019 by Sesquashtoo

[Superdelphinus 718]

I suddenly feel like buying everything fsdt have ever made (that I don’t already have). 

[Superdelphinus 718]

I haven’t read all of the thread and it’s obviously evolved since the first post, but I don’t think the flight sim is that different from any other online gaming community. Dominated by men + cloak of anonymity = turbulence. 

[Dominique_K 10,133]

On 12/1/2019 at 5:37 AM, Rob_Ainscough said:

 

I this issue is pretty simple.  Developers kept the MS platform alive and their/our rewards was a PR campaign that took us all by surprise ... 6 months later and still nothing delivered.  Timing is key.

Its got nothing to do with the new sim itself, its how the PR campaign was prematurely delivered that has triggered so much angst.  This left many developers with products they’ve invested considerable money into that will likely not recover the projected income to earn a profit or break even.  It could have been managed much better and all drama could have been avoided, but it wasn’t.

 

 

This is the strangest of your posts on this issue, Rob.

Yes, the developers kept the interest for flight simulation alive. I am glad they did. And the reward they received was the good money we spent on their products. MS does not owe them anything. Even if the market had disappeared, the new sim would make the headlines and a market would soon be reborn.

What do you mean by « our » reward, you have not released a product so far if I am not mistaken. Have you a mandate to speak on behalf of the industry ?

Then which  drama, which angst ? Except yours and Raul’s ? Have a read on Virtuali post below or Mathijs Kok’s one on his site. Fact : Aerosoft represents in a way all the developers they distribute. Where is the angst ? Where is the drama ? 

Some dev will lose their investment, you say ? Who and how much ? How is it that they don’t say anything ? 
 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by domkle

[Dominique_K 10,133]

11 hours ago, tjstreak said:

Sorry, I have been misled by the very excited users in the flightsim community too many times.  I tend to discount claims made by the very excited users.

Maybe these claims will prove to be correct.  Maybe not.  Time will tell.

God save us from the very excited users!

Nobody will not save us/you from overexcited simmers except common sense, Thomas. Skepticism is good. But sentences like "Until then, it's all lies and propaganda" are not skepticism, they exactly mirror in reverse those that you said misled you. Not skepticism but high school cynicism.

Now, if you have been, or at least have the feeling to have been misled by other simmers, is MS or Asobo at fault, or even the many good people here  ? 

Edited December 2, 2019 by domkle

[Holdit 551]

16 hours ago, Max50 said:

I think there are two groups.

1. Those who are happy with their current sims and need MSFS to prove itself.

2. Those who are desperate for a new sim and look at MSFS as being something incredible.

All there is to it.

3. Those who would like to see an improvement and hopefully a more fully-featured sim but who can manage with what they have in the meantime and aren't going to get overexcited about something that's still some way off and is still something of an unknown quantity.

It's possible that I'm the only member of group 3, but I doubt it.