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pegruder

Honeycomb yoke - is it worth it? If so best place to buy

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5 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

For those in the market for a new yoke don't forget Fulcrum are close to releasing their model. Hall-effect sensors, all metal construction and for non-Brits the exchange rate will make it very attractive financially. Cost around 358 GBP plus your local VAT / State taxes. That's around 40% of the cost of a Yoko.

https://www.fulcrumsim.com/

 

It's certainly a nice yoke Ray, as a former electronics/computer engineer (first trained heavily on analog systems back in 1980/1981) I'm very familiar with the many different ways to make these things, but the vast majority of people in our community have to look at the Cost Benefit and when you add Hall Effect sensors you drive the cost/price up considerably. Moreover, there are even better sensors available than Hall Effect (see my post to you several months ago), but that drives the cost/price up even further.

So with current exchange rates, the Fulcrum Yoke is still almost twice the price of the Honeycomb Yoke, but there is still more to consider here.

1. Just how darned accurate does the average flight simmer need a Yoke to be?  I can't speak (I mean I can['t say anything) about the upcoming MSFS, but the P3D engine is even limited for such inputs (I forget the figure, but I have it on the computer somewhere).  Using FSUIPC is certainly an option, but the real strengths there are smoothing errant pots out and of course I don't think it will be needed with MSFS.

2. One of the strengths of the Honeycomb Yoke is the incredible effort to make it as affordable to as many people as possible - which gets a high quality and extremely versatile Yoke in the hands of as many flight simmers as possible.  I applaud that effort as ours is already a hobby that is too expensive for many people.

3. The Honeycomb Yoke also comes with a built in switch panel which I use on every single flight, and once the Honeycomb Throttle Quadrant is released just a little later this year the combination of the two is going to make it a slam dunk for the AVERAGE flight simmer to purchase - they'll have a bevy of hardware inputs to use with their simulator.

 

Again, I don't disagree at all that the Fulcrum is a great little piece of hardware, but I see it more as high end for people who already have a lot of existing hardware inputs for their flight sim.  When I look at the Cost Benefit Analysis of the Honey Yoke and/or the Honeycomb Suite (the Yoke and Throttle Quadrant together) it's just an unbeatable buy.

 

Two videos of merit for this discussion done my Austin at Laminar Research, the first a comparison of Yokes and the second an excert of his Honeycomb Evaluation:

 

 

Best wishes to you my friend.

 

 

Edited by DaveCT2003
  • Upvote 1

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@DaveCT2003, I don’t know if you remember but it was me two years ago who first mentioned the Honeycomb yoke here at AvSim. I saw a 3D printed version at Lelystad show in Nov 2017. I’ve kept an eye on it ever since but when I saw the price was being kept around $200 and it was using pots I started to lose interest.  There are 3 certainties in life - Taxes, Death and all pots will eventually fail. 😋

Even pots in top end kit like PFC will fail. They just take longer. The reason I will only consider hardware with HE sensors is because they will last longer than I will. I’ve already thrown away two Saitek throttle quadrants simply because the pots had failed and replacements could not be found or fitted. That is not acceptable in this day and age.

HE sensors cost more but aren’t disproportionately expensive when you consider the price of the whole unit. The Fulcrum is a good compromise between the silly price of the Yoko and the cheap Saitek / Logitech. The Honeycomb is appealing with its many buttons but when I tried it at Cosford it didn’t leave me with the wow factor. I don’t choose HE sensors for their accuracy but for their longevity.

When you consider simmers can spend a few thousand on new computers a few hundred for a yoke doesn’t seem excessive. Each to their own of course.


Ray (Cheshire, England).
System: P3D v4.5, Intel i7-8086K o/c to 4.6Ghz, Nvidia GTX 1080 Ti 11Gb, Samsung 970 EVO M.2 SSD, 1Tb Samsung 860 EVO SSD, Asus Prime Z370-A mobo, 32Gb G.Skill DDR4 3000Mhz RAM, Win 10 Pro 64-bit, BenQ PD3200U 32” UHD monitor, Fulcrum One yoke.
Cheadle Hulme Weather

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1 hour ago, DaveCT2003 said:

When I look at the Cost Benefit Analysis of the Honey Yoke and/or the Honeycomb Suite (the Yoke and Throttle Quadrant together) it's just an unbeatable buy.

Dave,

From what I've read and the videos, I agree the Honeycomb yoke seems to provide good value. However, there are some things that make me a bit hesitant as I consider yoke options.

I currently have the Saitek yoke, and one of its drawbacks is limited pitch travel, and unfortunately the pitch travel for the Honeycomb is about the same. And like the Saitek, there have been some reports of axis dead zones with the Honeycomb (although to a lesser degree than with the Saitek yoke).  Despite the expressed concerns, there has been no response from Honeycomb on this issue that I'm aware of.

I wish the switches on the Honeycomb panel were not labeled because this makes them undesirable to use for other functions. I really don't find much value in physical switches that are only used once per flight (e.g., Nav, Beacon, Strobe, Avionics, Master) – I'm perfectly happy to use the mouse in the VC for these ‘once per flight’ type functions, especially when typically used before takeoff. So what I would like to do is use these switches for other more useful (in my personal judgement) functions, but the labels kind of discourage this. Same idea for the rotating 5 position switch on the right side of the yoke's panel. I fly mostly turboprop and bizjet type a/c -- so no mags to check, and again would like to use this switch for other things if it were not labeled as it is.

I realize these switch issues are personal ones.

I am looking forward to the Honeycomb Throttle Quadrant which appears will offer good flexibility and some unlabeled switches!   😉

As an aside, I sure hope a version of FSUIPC is developed for MSFS because the Lua scripting capability provided by FSUIPC is a powerful and very useful tool.  For example, I like to minimize use of the mouse as much as possible for repetitive functions, and it is through the FSUIPC Lua scripting capability that I'm able to do things like enter headings, courses, airspeed, altitudes, and comm and nav frequencies without having to resort to fiddling with elusive mouse click spots while bouncing around  in the clouds. Instead, I just directly enter the values needed using the keyboard numberpad (kind of like entering values into an FMC). If MSFS provides some type of similar scripting capability, then perhaps you are correct that FSUIPC will not be needed. TBD.

Best,

Al

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Try the My Pilot store.  They are in Scottsdale, AZ.  I just purchased my Honeycomb Alpha for $249.00.  I haven't used it long enough to give a review, but it is a lot smoother than my CH.  I fly mostly single Eng. GA.  When the Bravo throttle comes out I will probably try twin Eng.

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1 hour ago, Rod said:

Try the My Pilot store.  They are in Scottsdale, AZ.  I just purchased my Honeycomb Alpha for $249.00.  I haven't used it long enough to give a review, but it is a lot smoother than my CH.  I fly mostly single Eng. GA.  When the Bravo throttle comes out I will probably try twin Eng.

I just ordered one from there as well. Should have it by Friday. Free shipping and no sales tax charged.

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I just got one and while it is very nice quality and seems very well designed I am a bit disappointed with how stiff the pitch axis is (coming from a Saitek Cessna Yoke).  They claim they based this on the feel of a C-172 but with over 2000 hours in a 172 I can say the only time I have ever felt this type of pressure is during a steep turn without using trim.   I also was unable to utilize the clamps as my desk is about 1mm too thick.  The 3M suction works well but I tend to need to move it quite a bit so that might be a bit more of a pain.


Eric

P3D v5 & MSFS   i7-6700k @ 4.4 GHz, Nvidia GTX 1080ti, 32GB ddr4 RAM, 1TB EVO 850 SSD, Samsung CRG90 49", Win 10

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Decisions Decisions!  I've been watching wayy too many youtube reviews and am torn between the Yoko and the honeycomb.  I know I know, entirely different price points, but I'm debating on if I'm going to spend, spend once and maybe get the yoko and just suck up and eat the cost lol.  I don't know.  I'm holding out to see if I am just impulse buying or not lol.


Chris DeGroat   P3D v4.4 | 737NGX | FSL A320 |FS2Crew NGX Reboot | ProATCx | Pilot2ATC | AS16+ASCA | FlyInside

XP11 | JAR A320+BSS | XEnviro | FlyInside

i9 9900k OC'd 5.0Ghz All Cores | 64GB RAM | 2TB Samsung EVO SSD (1TB x 2 in RAID 0) | Asus ROG Strix RTX 2080Ti | Rift CV1 | Vive Pro

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@pegruder, don't forget the Fulcrum. Due out very shortly now Chris has got the final components. And as the GBP is weak against the USD the price will be very attractive. Price around 349GBP plus your local tax.

https://www.fulcrumsim.com/


Ray (Cheshire, England).
System: P3D v4.5, Intel i7-8086K o/c to 4.6Ghz, Nvidia GTX 1080 Ti 11Gb, Samsung 970 EVO M.2 SSD, 1Tb Samsung 860 EVO SSD, Asus Prime Z370-A mobo, 32Gb G.Skill DDR4 3000Mhz RAM, Win 10 Pro 64-bit, BenQ PD3200U 32” UHD monitor, Fulcrum One yoke.
Cheadle Hulme Weather

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2 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

@pegruder, don't forget the Fulcrum. Due out very shortly now Chris has got the final components. And as the GBP is weak against the USD the price will be very attractive. Price around 349GBP plus your local tax.

https://www.fulcrumsim.com/

Oof you did mention this earlier!  Yea, I'm hanging back for now then.  I completely forgot.

 

Edit: reading more about this thing it sounds almost too good to be true!


Chris DeGroat   P3D v4.4 | 737NGX | FSL A320 |FS2Crew NGX Reboot | ProATCx | Pilot2ATC | AS16+ASCA | FlyInside

XP11 | JAR A320+BSS | XEnviro | FlyInside

i9 9900k OC'd 5.0Ghz All Cores | 64GB RAM | 2TB Samsung EVO SSD (1TB x 2 in RAID 0) | Asus ROG Strix RTX 2080Ti | Rift CV1 | Vive Pro

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On 12/22/2019 at 12:14 PM, Ray Proudfoot said:

@pegruder, don't forget the Fulcrum. Due out very shortly now Chris has got the final components. And as the GBP is weak against the USD the price will be very attractive. Price around 349GBP plus your local tax.

Hi Ray.  Where are you seeing the 349 GBP number?  The only thing I find on their site states 429 GBP (which does include VAT, but I have no idea how this will be handled for worldwide sales).

At 349, that works out to about $450 at current exchange rates - a bit less than twice what the Honeycomb costs.  At 429 it moves up to about $555 which I'm afraid is getting outside of what I can justify to myself.  My aging Saitek (which has always been a compromise) is about worn out and I don't know how much longer I can wait.  I'm personally inclined towards the Honeycomb as it's available today, affordable and, while not perfect, is by most accounts a substantial improvement over the Saitek gear.

Thanks,

Scott

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@tttocs, it is around 349 GBP plus your local taxes. This post gives the U.K. price including our VAT.  https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/543272-fulcrum-yoke-demonstrated-at-cosford-fs-show/?do=findComment&comment=4068632

 

I believe it’s higher quality than the Honeycomb and less than half the price of the Yoko.

British made, mostly steel construction with Hall-effect sensors. The Honeycomb still uses pots which will eventually wear out. There is 8” of travel with the Fulcrum which is 2.5 times the Honeycomb.


Ray (Cheshire, England).
System: P3D v4.5, Intel i7-8086K o/c to 4.6Ghz, Nvidia GTX 1080 Ti 11Gb, Samsung 970 EVO M.2 SSD, 1Tb Samsung 860 EVO SSD, Asus Prime Z370-A mobo, 32Gb G.Skill DDR4 3000Mhz RAM, Win 10 Pro 64-bit, BenQ PD3200U 32” UHD monitor, Fulcrum One yoke.
Cheadle Hulme Weather

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1 hour ago, tttocs said:

My aging Saitek (which has always been a compromise) is about worn out and I don't know how much longer I can wait. 

While I agree you should get whatever yoke best fits your situation, I personally would not base my decision on a month or so difference in availability given I expect to have a new yoke for many years.

Al

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3 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

@tttocs, it is around 349 GBP plus your local taxes. This post gives the U.K. price including our VAT.  https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/543272-fulcrum-yoke-demonstrated-at-cosford-fs-show/?do=findComment&comment=4068632

OK, thanks.  At 349 and current exchange rates it's still a possibility.

3 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

British made, mostly steel construction with Hall-effect sensors. The Honeycomb still uses pots which will eventually wear out. There is 8” of travel with the Fulcrum which is 2.5 times the Honeycomb.

Sure, but in all honesty I'm not as convinced as you are that this will be an issue.  On the Saitek side, the pots were glitchy from day one.  Not enough to cause problems at the start, but you could see the issue if you looked (in my case in FSUIPC).  Over time, this has gotten worse, but that's partly a result of what was obviously a poor part to begin with.  My yoke is now something like 8 or 9 years old.  (The pots in the Saitek power quadrant are a whole 'nother issue - they started bad and proceeded to problematic all too quickly.)  In Austin's vid, it's easy to see that the starting point for the yoke is much better.  There's simply no noise to start with indicating a better part.

There's no question the HE sensors are the better choice.  I just don't know if it's worth almost doubling the cost.

3 hours ago, ark said:

While I agree you should get whatever yoke best fits your situation, I personally would not base my decision on a month or so difference in availability given I expect to have a new yoke for many years.

You're right, of course.  If the Fulcrum really is about to release it's probably worth waiting and getting RW reviews of it before I make the final choice.  I've been wanting to switch to something better for years, so waiting a few more weeks isn't a showstopper.

Thank you both for sharing your thoughts.

Scott

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9 hours ago, tttocs said:

OK, thanks.  At 349 and current exchange rates it's still a possibility.

Sure, but in all honesty I'm not as convinced as you are that this will be an issue.  On the Saitek side, the pots were glitchy from day one.  Not enough to cause problems at the start, but you could see the issue if you looked (in my case in FSUIPC).  Over time, this has gotten worse, but that's partly a result of what was obviously a poor part to begin with.  My yoke is now something like 8 or 9 years old.

There's no question the HE sensors are the better choice.  I just don't know if it's worth almost doubling the cost.

Thank you both for sharing your thoughts.

Scott

Scott, all pots eventually fail including those on really expensive equipment like PFC. Swapping them out is a nightmare. In the case of Saitek equipment it's not possible and I'll have to throw the whole thing out for the same of something that cost pennies. Great for the environment eh?

I really don't believe the Honeycomb is that much of an improvement over the Saitek. Time will tell. Regarding spending a couple of hundred dollars more consider how much your graphics card cost and I can assure you that a quality yoke will outlast not only that card but a couple of replacements too. In the big picture the extra is negligible.


Ray (Cheshire, England).
System: P3D v4.5, Intel i7-8086K o/c to 4.6Ghz, Nvidia GTX 1080 Ti 11Gb, Samsung 970 EVO M.2 SSD, 1Tb Samsung 860 EVO SSD, Asus Prime Z370-A mobo, 32Gb G.Skill DDR4 3000Mhz RAM, Win 10 Pro 64-bit, BenQ PD3200U 32” UHD monitor, Fulcrum One yoke.
Cheadle Hulme Weather

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I also started out with the Saitek yoke when I started flight simming, and not knowing then if I would keep up the interest for a longer time, it was then a good choice. And under those circumstances, Honeycomb would be a better choice now for an entry level yoke: linear bearings, plenty of switches etc

If replacing pots is a important factor, have a look at user paulpenney videos here:
https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/561289-honeycomb-yoke-dead-zone-concern/page/4/

In the first video, one can see a closeup of the roll potentiometer. Seems to be a fairly standard potentiometer, easy to replace. No worries there for that price level.
On the other hand, the pitch potentiometer can be critical. Here, a linear potentiometer is used. The reason is clear: it avoids using a gear wheel and gear rack.The videos are not that clear, but I do not see a standard linear potentiometer. So finding a replacement on the open market can be critical. And typically, linear potentiometers have a lower mechanical life than rotary potentiometers.

If you are in the market for a higher end yoke, other factors than using Hall sensors have to be considered. E.g. the Yoko Plus, uses Hall sensors (see Michael Brown video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmEItqPloPA), but they are highly integrated and looks like difficult to find a spare part. Plus a gear wheel and gear rack is used. Again, good luck with finding that on the open market when it breaks down.
For a high end yoke, more factors have to be considered such as: reliability, precision, replaceability, availability of spare parts on the open market. And not just of one element like a Hall sensor, but all related elements. Unfortunately, those aspects are difficult to find out since most manufacturers do not publish details.   

Edited by oemlegoem
  • Upvote 2

FlyHirundo Rudder Pedal and Yoke
Designed and manufactured in Switzerland

Email: info@flyhirundo.com
Website: under construction

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