Request for a "World Scale" adjustment in VR

[smoothchat 99]

I hope Asobo includes an adjustment for "world scale" in VR.

I have seen many VR implementations where the cockpit (or environment) appears "too big" or "too small"  to some users.

I am not talking about the IPD setting.

I am talking about a setting which effects the preception of depth and size, and this can be different for every user and headset combination.

FlyInside provides this feature and it works very well. 

P3D and XP do not have this feature, and the Cessna cockpit sometimes appears too small to some, and too large to others.

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by smoothchat

[virtuali 4,421]

I think what you are referring to is a "Stereo Separation" control, which might seem the same as IPD, but in fact is not.

- IPD is the physical adjustment of the lenses to match your IPD distance, for better comfort and sharpness ( since the fresnel lens is sharper on center ). Some headsets has this as a control that physically move the lenses, other have it in software.

- Stereo Separation is the distance between the "virtual eyes", which are setup in the software to generate the two images that make a stereo vision. Ideally, they should match and move together with the variable IPD, so the sim is simulating *your* own IPD. However, there would be nothing wrong to simulate somebody else IPD using a slightly different Stereo Separation, as long as you use *your* IPD in the headset settings, which is required for comfort.

However, if Stereo Separation is *way* off, dept/size perceptions of the outside world will change. For example, if it's too high, you are simulating being a much bigger creature, one with a way larger IPD than a human, which will result in the very well known "toys world" effect. You'll feel like a giant staring over a miniature world. Google Earth VR works like this, it uses two very different Stereo Separation settings, depending if you are using the default view (so you feel like a giant), or the real scale view option, in which are you back to human size, so everything around you will feel big.

But if Stereo separation is accurate, and the airplane cockpit is precise ( which is not a given, not many airplane developers ever laser-scanned cockpits before ), it should feel accurate.

 

Edited December 7, 2019 by virtuali

[Theboot100 404]

1 hour ago, virtuali said:

I think what you are referring to is a "Stereo Separation" control, which might seem the same as IPD, but in fact is not.

- IPD is the physical adjustment of the lenses to match your IPD distance, for better comfort and sharpness ( since the fresnel lens is sharper on center ). Some headsets has this as a control that physically move the lenses, other have it in software.

- Stereo Separation is the distance between the "virtual eyes", which are setup in the software to generate the two images that make a stereo vision. Ideally, they should match and move together with the variable IPD, so the sim is simulating *your* own IPD. However, there would be nothing wrong to simulate somebody else IPD using a slightly different Stereo Separation, as long as you use *your* IPD in the headset settings, which is required for comfort.

However, if Stereo Separation is *way* off, dept/size perceptions of the outside world will change. For example, if it's too high, you are simulating being a much bigger creature, one with a way larger IPD than a human, which will result in the very well known "toys world" effect. You'll feel like a giant staring over a miniature world. Google Earth VR works like this, it uses two very different Stereo Separation settings, depending if you are using the default view (so you feel like a giant), or the real scale view option, in which are you back to human size, so everything around you will feel big.

But if Stereo separation is accurate, and the airplane cockpit is precise ( which is not a given, not many airplane developers ever laser-scanned cockpits before ), it should feel accurate.

 

Perfect explanation. Thanks

[HiFlyer 9,359]

3 minutes ago, Theboot100 said:

Perfect explanation. Thanks

There is also the ability to actually control the apparent cockpit size. Aerofly has this option in settings, so it's definitely possible.

[Murmur 3,941]

Do VR headsets with manual IPD adjustment also automatically adjust stereo separation (via software) every time IPD is manually adjusted? I hope so, otherwise world scale would be wrong for anyone who doesn't have the "default" IPD of the headset. Anyone knows?

[Nedo68 533]

2 minutes ago, Murmur said:

Do VR headsets with manual IPD adjustment also automatically adjust stereo separation (via software) every time IPD is manually adjusted? I hope so, otherwise world scale would be wrong for anyone who doesn't have the "default" IPD of the headset. Anyone knows?

on my Valve Index i can adjust the IPD manually and it dont change the stereo separation, ie. it stays the same. To be more clear, your world around you don't change while moving IPD slider.

[Murmur 3,941]

Thank you. Bummer, a bit disappointing. In that case, a world scale adjustment would be indeed useful.

[Nedo68 533]

something like aerofly have would be ok, but i used it only once just for fun, to feel like a giant in a RC plane or like a small mouse inside a cockpit 😅

[blueshark747 1,843]

Most sims in VR have a scale option

[OzWhitey 3,353]

On 12/7/2019 at 8:11 AM, virtuali said:

I think what you are referring to is a "Stereo Separation" control, which might seem the same as IPD, but in fact is not.

- IPD is the physical adjustment of the lenses to match your IPD distance, for better comfort and sharpness ( since the fresnel lens is sharper on center ). Some headsets has this as a control that physically move the lenses, other have it in software.

- Stereo Separation is the distance between the "virtual eyes", which are setup in the software to generate the two images that make a stereo vision. Ideally, they should match and move together with the variable IPD, so the sim is simulating *your* own IPD. However, there would be nothing wrong to simulate somebody else IPD using a slightly different Stereo Separation, as long as you use *your* IPD in the headset settings, which is required for comfort.

However, if Stereo Separation is *way* off, dept/size perceptions of the outside world will change. For example, if it's too high, you are simulating being a much bigger creature, one with a way larger IPD than a human, which will result in the very well known "toys world" effect. You'll feel like a giant staring over a miniature world. Google Earth VR works like this, it uses two very different Stereo Separation settings, depending if you are using the default view (so you feel like a giant), or the real scale view option, in which are you back to human size, so everything around you will feel big.

But if Stereo separation is accurate, and the airplane cockpit is precise ( which is not a given, not many airplane developers ever laser-scanned cockpits before ), it should feel accurate.

 

No, that’s wrong, he’s not talking about stereo separation. He’s talking about world scale, as he said.

Go and fly AF2 in VR - there’s a slider that controls this parameter, and it’s very, very useful.

I’ve got around 50 aircraft that I cycle through in VR, in some cases the cockpit is clearly too small - you can tell, as your head clips through the roof or left window in a normal seating position.

P3D and x-plane lack this feature. I’ve learned to live with it, but it makes certain aircraft unattractive as VR fliers.

So +1 from me for a control of this nature being added once Asobo get their VR implementation sorted.

[virtuali 4,421]

6 hours ago, OzWhitey said:

No, that’s wrong, he’s not talking about stereo separation. He’s talking about world scale, as he said.

Not wrong.

You cannot discuss of one, without taking into account the other. Depending on the software, you might have separate controls for world scale and stereo separation, but if it doesn't, when the world scale changes, the stereo separation should change too, otherwise you'll get the weird "godzilla" effect, which is the feel to be a giant, compared to the feel of being smaller than you are.

You said world scale is useful to fix cockpit made with the wrong sizes ? Fine, let's do an example, using simple figures:

In an ideal world, the cockpit matches real world size 1:1, the scenery matches real world size 1:1, the software stereo separation matches YOUR interpupillary distance and your VR helmet is set to the *same* IPD value. This is the perfect situation.

Now, assume the *cockpit* has been modeled at half size for some reason, the scenery stays the same, and the rest stays the same. If you double the world scale, to fix the cockpit, assuming it acts on the whole 3d projection of scenery+cockpit, the cockpit will feel real, but the scenery would look bigger AS IF your stereo separation was too low ( the "small creature" effect ), so you would have to increase the stereo separation too, assuming the software is not already doing that automatically when the world scale changes.

However, this would still be not entirely right, because even if you won't feel like a tiny mouse in relationship with the scenery, you would still feel like a giant in the cockpit...

So basically, when VR is concerned, there's no free lunch, and the scenery AND the cockpit SHOULD be modeled right, unless the software could offer a way to scale the cockpit separately from the world, to provide for wrongly modeled cockpit AND provide a stereo separation control as well.

[smoothchat 99]

Perhaps I misunderstand the finer details, but I still maintain that a "world scale" adjustment would be a useful feature and people can just set it or ignore it as they wish.

Even just to compensate between 2 different headsets and associated drivers.

In my Oculus Rift, the cockpit looks a little large, in an HP Reverb, the cockpit looks a little small IMHO.

A world scale adjustment would allow me to compensate for this.

[McKafre 2]

Im would love to have that feature. Its missing in all racing sims (iRacing, AC, ACC, etc ...) and for some people the cars are too big or too small.

I love how that feature works in FS2

 

 

[cleobis 0]

Ok, solution found!!

You can use fpsVR program (steam $3) to change your ipd through software.

I have an OG VIVE, kept my physical ipd (65mm) and just changed the ipd offset with fpsVR. You can do this while the sim is running, just need to restart steamVR after each change but not the sim. In my case after testing I needed an offset of -20. Massive change, finally a yoke that a human can use.

Just remember that aircraft are not scaled correctly, meaning, you will have to adjust the offset depending on the aircraft, some are smaller and some are bigger (ex: A320 has a massive cockpit, 747 not so much).

Conclusion:
It solves the scale problem but still need ASOBO to do something as I shouldn’t have to pay and use a 3rd party software to solve a msfs problem.

[dogmanbird 269]

 

Thanks Cleobis.

If it's working in MSFS, does it need to have "Steam OpenXR" enabled? Could it work with "WMR OpenXR" through steam VR? I'm guessing not as WMR Open XR enabled doesn't appear to open SteamVR with MSFS?

Unfortunately MSFS is buggy with Steam OpenXR on my PC, particularly the audio (bursts of hash/white noise and crackles)

Thanks for any info 🙂

Edited February 2, 2021 by dogmanbird