On route hold

[Tims Sim 4]

Hi,

Compliments of the season to one and all.

I do use the hold facility available in VOXATC, not on every flight, perhaps one in five. There are problems with it and I'm wondering if anyone has found a work around for one or all of them.

First, the waypoints offered for holding are too far from the airport usually and they don't match the holding points on the charts. If you manually insert a waypoint in the procedure text file, it is ignored, in fact it is removed. Is there a way to force VOXATC to use chosen holding points? Is there a parameter in another file controlling this feature that can be adjusted i.e. distance from airport or start of STAR?

Second, the holding altitude usually makes no sense at all i.e. I can be on descent at say 16,000ft and the instruction will be to hold at 25,200ft, which of course is nonsense, for a number of reasons. If you ignore the altitude instruction you get nagged to climb. Often you are also told you will get further instruction at (say) 5000ft, which is often below the last instructed altitude or below MSA. Again is there a way around this that anyone knows of?

I tend to complete a couple of circuits and then continue on route, contacting approach/tower and then VOX settles back into the correct instructions.

Thanks very much

Dave

 

[vadriver 247]

dave

it is late downunda ..... so beg your leave to reply later.

but would like to hear more given i have had little joy in using this feature in v742 with P3DV452.

i mostly fly asian skies in class A airspace where airways etc are a tad different & holding seems problematic at best for voxatc.

can you tell us your skies ? 

[Tims Sim 4]

Hi downunda ,

Europe only. The hold feature works for me it's just the above mentioned issues that make it flaky.

I hope you're safe from the fires.

Regards

Dave

 

[vadriver 247]

14 hours ago, egkkman said:

manually insert a waypoint in the procedure text file

dave

i'm unsure of what you are doing in this.

as best i know it, the only option voxatc has to set "holdings" is with the "flight plan extras" feature where one can nominate an en-route hold.

from my perspective / experience, that en-route hold could actually be after TOD if an arrival (star) commences closer to one's destination (as is the case with most asia airports)

where i experience most problems is that voxatc for some reason does not seem to recognise fixes (be they waypoints or navaids) that are not included in one's sims stock data. the only successful holds i get are where a navaid is nominated as the hold & that navaid has been updated by herve sors airac data (his waypoint updates & those of fsad are not directly embedded in the sim).

now if i do receive a hold at such an "embedded" navaid, altitude clearances are as expected.

so not exactly similar to your issues i suspect, but may be a clue on "whatever".

an idea i am planning to try is to include holds in voxatc's (LDS) airac stars (which would be more realistically closer to one's destination) & see how that goes, given i know voxatc uses that airac for that portion of the flight.

your thoughts on the above appreciated.

PS the fires are still burning but not spreading as much & will do so until there's descent rain to douse the tree trunks still smouldering. most of the "damage" has been to isolated towns near the national parks (forests) ...... fauna & flora the largest casualties.

[Tims Sim 4]

Hi Vadriver,

 

I am very sorry for the slow reply to your response, I have marked the thread so that I get a notification of a reply, but it did not work.

Anyway.....

Quote

i'm unsure of what you are doing in this.

I am using the Flight Plan extras facility. The problem is that when you select the dropdown list of all the on route waypoints, the final few are always missing, it is usually one of these missing waypoints that is used as the hold prior to approach, as shown on the charts.

I suspect that the waypoints used by VOXATC are up to a predetermined distance from the arrival airport, predetermined by some internal parameter of VOXATC.

I have tried to manually edit the route by adding the hold point into the text file stored in the VOXATC data file. It does not work.

Quote

that en-route hold could actually be after TOD if an arrival (star) commences closer to one's destination

This is the case in UK. As I say, I believe (no proof of this) that VOXATC has a built in parameter for using a waypoints up to a certain distance from the destination, probably to allow for use of a STAR.

Quote

an idea i am planning to try is to include holds in voxatc's (LDS) airac stars (which would be more realistically closer to one's destination) & see how that goes, given i know voxatc uses that airac for that portion of the flight.

Good luck! It'll be interesting to see if this works. The problem is, if I understand you correctly, is you'll have to do this for every STAR.

Regards

Dave

[vadriver 247]

20 hours ago, egkkman said:

that VOXATC has a built in parameter

dave

you may or may not have a parameter in the AppData's VASettings.xml file ...<DescentRatio Value="4.0" /> .... or similar, perhaps steeper at 2.5 to calculate its (vox's) TOD to instruct / initiate a descent in an unrestrained straight direction from one's destination.

making it steeper may thus help include those missing waypoints in the enroute portion possible holds. of course one would then need to potentially request descent earlier than that TOD depending on the geometry of the arrival track.

if you look at the SIER7A arrival to VHHH, you will see what i mean about geometry. The LENDY arrival to KJFK is similar.

PS my idea of including holds in the airac did not work ...... vox called the format incorrect (??). 

[Tims Sim 4]

Hi,

I have altered the descent ratio parameter but have not fully tested it. However, the waypoints listed in the advanced flight plan extras area still does not include waypoints nearer to the airport. I tested this by leaving the descent ratio as it was, increasing it and looking at the list and decreasing it and looking at the list.  Ideally the list should include the IAF by default, in my opinion anyway.

I have another idea but not sure if it's possible. I could add the hold point to the waypoint list and then make it the hold point. Not sure if VOXATC will accept this change or not. I suspect it will just ignore it as it did when I added the waypoint to the hold. I'll let you know. I feel certain there's a parameter somewhere that causes the list to be produced as it is.

Anyway, in overall terms for me VOAXTAC works well, it's just a shame development seems to have stopped, although I expect for good reason.

Regards

Dave

[vadriver 247]

20 hours ago, egkkman said:

Ideally the list should include the IAF by default, in my opinion anyway.

dave

most traffic holds as distinct from procedural ones for cat c&d etc. aircraft are mostly about 12000' agl (just a tad before an IAF)

that aside .....

20 hours ago, egkkman said:

it's just a shame development seems to have stopped

my thoughts are that we need more feedback on whether we are using voxatc correctly / to its best (i have discovered much by experiment, but not sure why it seems so) .... then there may be a need to a "minor update" if any.

to paraphrase jay (TMFSW) who i often feel is on the mark  .... "most issues with voxatc are incompatablities with scenery & data by others?

let us know how your experiments go, please !

[Tims Sim 4]

Hi,

 

Yes I am still alive!  Sorry have been very busy the past few weeks.

I have the descent ratio set at 2.5, after some experimentation. This seems to be the sweet spot for me. I get instructions to descend 10 - 30 miles before TD.

Aircraft en route and on the ground is proving trickier. Here's my settings:

<MaxParkedAircraft Value="20" />
   <MaxEnrouteAircraft Value="80" />
  <MaxTerminalAircraft Value="20" />

I have the VOXATC slider at 50%, but there is far too much traffic on the ground and a repetitiveness of airlines i.e. 75% Turkish or Ryan Air or Scandinavian. On route there's still very little. Tegwin told me (a long time ago) that if the slider is at 30% (where I typically have it) then 30% of parking spaces will be taken up. Altering the vasettings.xml does not seem to have altered this.

I'll do some more tweaking.

Regards

Dave

[jabloomf1230 2,445]

On 1/12/2020 at 12:51 AM, vadriver said:

to paraphrase jay (TMFSW) who i often feel is on the mark  .... "most issues with voxatc are incompatibilities with scenery & data by others?

Hey Dave,

I'm still trying to figure out what TMFSW means, but the above quote is germane to your AI traffic mix problem. Are you observing this at all airports or just some? I'm also assuming here that you are using AIG FM for AI traffic. If an airport does not have the proper sizes, types and airline codes for its parking spaces, VOXATC may have no idea where to put specific aircraft. Also, this entry is misspelled in your post, so see if it's also spelled incorrectly in your VASettings.xml file:

    <MaxActiveTerminalAircraft Value="10" />

There's no assurance that those undocumented settings actually do anything in VOXATC. They all seem to work for me, though.

Jay

[vadriver 247]

1 hour ago, jabloomf1230 said:

I'm still trying to figure out what TMFSW means

sorry Minister ..... should be MOSW. you'll need to explain further.

 

13 hours ago, egkkman said:

I have the descent ratio set at 2.5 (nm per 1000'), after some experimentation

Dave

at this steep fpa, are you succeeding with holds closer to the IAF (& are those holds at fixes or navaids) ?

13 hours ago, egkkman said:

I get instructions to descend 10 - 30 miles before TD.

so your TOD is even steeper than .... or am i misunderstanding. could you tell us of a particular route / star / altitude etc. where you find the "sweet spot".

i'm curious 😉

[Tims Sim 4]

Hi guys,

 

Once again sorry for the delay replying. I don't get notified when a post is replied to, despite ticking the box.

Jay, thanks for your input. 

Quote

Also, this entry is misspelled in your post, so see if it's also spelled incorrectly in your VASettings.xml file:

I will check this tonight, thanks.

Quote

Are you observing this at all airports or just some

It seems to be all of them. This was not the case before. For example I very regularly use Bristol airport, previously there was a good mix of airlines. Last night there was only Ryanair.

Quote

that you are using AIG FM for AI traffic

This is correct.

John,

Quote

at this steep fpa, are you succeeding with holds closer to the IAF (& are those holds at fixes or navaids) ?

The instruction to descend is issued 20 - 40 miles before the TD, as calculated by the aircraft FMC. So, the altitude restrictions etc. are all programmed into the routing so yes hitting the right speeds and levels is no problem.

Quote

could you tell us of a particular route / star / altitude etc. where you find the "sweet spot".

Not really.......  This seems to suit all routes that I plan using PFPX, Navigraph and Active Sky weather. Once the route and restrictions are programmed into the FMC the TD is calculated and shown on the navigation display. This can change with the input of decent forecast info. but I have yet to carryout a flight where VOXATC instructs descent after the TD, as I say it's usually 20/40 miles prior whereas previously it could be 80 miles prior.

I only fly a home cockpit 737 using Prosim 737 800 for the avionics & flight model so, my performance parameters are the same for each planned flight i.e I'm not using different aircraft or different types (737 800 vs 737 700).

Regards

Dave

[vadriver 247]

12 hours ago, egkkman said:

it's usually 20/40 miles prior whereas previously it could be 80 miles prior.

dave

your previous descent ratio was thus about 3.5^o or 4.0^o ??

3.5^o is what i use & results in different Vox calls, some before/ some after the FMC calc of TOD, but generally consistent for downwind arrivals as distinct to direct.

 

[Tims Sim 4]

Hi John & Jay,

Okay, so to clarify the descent is set at 2.5, not sure if this relates to angle of decent, I think probably not. But anyway, it does seem to be just right for me and the flights I carryout. I have tested this extensively and I always get the descent instruction at a sensible point.

With regard to traffic; the script in the VAsettings.xml was indeed wrong i.e. not spelt correctly. I have corrected this and set the quantities as follows:

<MaxParkedAircraft Value="30" />
   <MaxEnrouteAircraft Value="50" />
  <MaxActiveTerminalAircraft Value="20" />

This results in far too many aircraft at the airports. On route traffic was also a bit hefty but more realistic than that on the ground. I think this is a case of tweaking about until the traffic looks okay. I did not notice any particular impact on performance at this level. To be honest, I'm not sure what the difference is between 1 & 3!

So far as the problem with not enough mix of airlines is concerned, I have solved this.I have to go through a convoluted process to get the indexer to run properly i.e. not stopping at weather themes etc. Basically I had missed out a step of this process and it was this that caused the problem I think.

For me, if I can get the volume of traffic sorted, VOXATC is working well.Which I guess is a good thing since development seems to have stopped.......  

Regards

Dave

[jabloomf1230 2,445]

29 minutes ago, egkkman said:

I have solved this.I have to go through a convoluted process to get the indexer to run properly i.e. not stopping at weather themes etc.

Dave,

There a few threads about this previously. The problem stems from having typos/conflicts in either scenery.cfg, add-ons.cfg or an add-on.xml file. The most common source of this issue is having a specific scenery included in the scenery library twice, once via scenery.cfg and once via add-ons.cfg. This often occurs when a developer updates from the old add-on method (scenery.cfg) to the new method. The old entry remains in scenery.cfg. Lorby's Add-on Organizer is a freeware tool that will help you hunt down these scenery library errors:

https://www.lorby-si.com/downloads.html

Little NavMap is another freeware utility that gives you a list of the actual files being used for any airport in your scenery library.

P3d4 itself is very forgiving about errors in the scenery library. It will usually just ignore them, unless they are really outrageous in nature.

Jay