No More Photogrammetry Trees?

[strider1 575]

10 minutes ago, Anders Bermann said:

Why don't we just wait for Asobo/Microsoft to make some kind of statement, as to why this has happened and why they have changed this. That way, we can get an understanding as to what their intentions are. 

Asobo is not going to put out a statement on all the ridiculous conjecture in these forums!

[anden145 2,285]

22 minutes ago, strider1 said:

Asobo is not going to put out a statement on all the ridiculous conjecture in these forums!

Maybe, maybe not. But that was not my point! Come one - read inwards...

If (or when) Asobo or Microsoft addresses this seasons video, they might also tell us something as to why these trees have been changed. Is this because of seasons implementation? Are they testing some new models? For god's sake - this is still in development; it isn't final and there might - just might - be a reason for their decision. 

They don't do this just to irritate us (although some in here, seem to have been under that impression). 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Anders Bermann

[mSparks 2,086]

10 hours ago, Claviateur said:

No, X-Plane 11's engine can't be compared to Asobo's....

The "problem" is they are comparing MSFS2020 with Microsoft ESP (FSX and P3D) which hasn't seen any significant work under the hood since around 2002. So things like default global scenery, seasons, and wind/weather modelling are completely new, alien concepts to them (rather than toys they've been playing with for two or three years).

Microsoft/Asobo made some great videos using Photogrammetry.

Now it turns out only 1% of MSFS2020 scenery will be Photogrammetry.

Meanwhile XP11.50 beta is due very soon, which will be a generation newer graphics API than the DX11 Asobo are using in their Alpha (rather than the generation or three older openGL currently in 11.41).

Edited January 4, 2020 by mSparks

[azulkb 302]

I thought the OP was factual, and cool in the way he said it. 

As a developer myself, I work in a structure that respects my job and the ups and downs of development. I left other structures where we were considered as less than nothing.

I have no doubt that Central Park is an iconic place like the effel tower that will be refined by hand before the release.

When Microsoft showed us a few years ago ultra beautiful teasings that had nothing to do with reality, we were right to get angry.

Here since the beginning we are shown raw videos in which nothing is hidden and I love this transparency. It's a proof of respect for us to be up to the task. I hope it's the case with the alpha testers.

If some people can't stand to see raw and unfinished things, a tip : don't look at anything and wait for the beta or release to give you an opinion.

[Pastaiolo 1,688]

1 hour ago, mSparks said:

The "problem" is they are comparing MSFS2020 with Microsoft ESP (FSX and P3D) which hasn't seen any significant work under the hood since around 2002. So things like default global scenery, seasons, and wind/weather modelling are completely new, alien concepts to them (rather than toys they've been playing with for two or three years).

Microsoft/Asobo made some great videos using Photogrammetry.

Now it turns out only 1% of MSFS2020 scenery will be Photogrammetry.

Meanwhile XP11.50 beta is due very soon, which will be a generation newer graphics API than the DX11 Asobo are using in their Alpha (rather than the generation or three older openGL currently in 11.41).

So let them?

I am also a XP user, i know some of the features shown in MSFS are actually not so new in the XP world. Who cares if they are implementing them and people, who were not aware of them before, are now excited about them? Let them. You should be happy too because it means something XP introduced was actually considered worthy by a competitor as a feature to be implemented.

How many cities were going to be covered in photogrammetry we knew from the start, it's nothing new. We also knew how Bing photogrammetry coverage is much lower compared to Google's. And yet, no other current simulator is able to provide the same experience. So 400 photogrammetry cities are better than 0 photogrammetry cities.

(

Vulkan in XP11 will be nice, yes, and it is something new, yes. But it is also something which only XP11 needed to fix its performance and stutters on certain config, and more importantly to fix AMD drivers which have never ever worked properly there. Not all engines need Vulkan nowadays to provide a realistic and visually pleasing experience (i could mention DCS, Il2 Sturmovik Series, hell even War Thunder as examples). And this is even without mentioning the fact that all the content LR wants to add is something that will come after Vulkan. So introducing Vulkan per se doesn't do much but reduce stutters and increase fps for AMD users or CPU bound configs (usually the low/medium configs according to fps tables posted so far), the new things will come later on and those are the ones we'll need to judge to see it was actually worth it or not.

)

Either way this has no place in this topic.

[azulkb 302]

1 hour ago, mSparks said:

 

Wrong.

The areas outside the photogrammetic have been shown many times. Paris, Porto, and more recently photos like the glacier. I'm not going to make the complete list but all the urban plans are respected the translated colors, the reliefs and realistic buildings.

For me and it's my taste - it's light years away from what exists today.

Moreover there is a whole category of people who want a beautiful simulator without reading tons of manuals and installing tons of addons.

There are also people for whom consistency counts and who want on a 900 mile flight a consistent visual aspect and not 159 miles of very correct 590 miles of average and the rest completely vanilla ugly graphic.

What I don't understand is that a space reserved for those who have a strong interest in this new simulator is such an important place for you.

I honestly hope that when Microsoft's public forum is open, you won't be invited. Because here you can't convince anyone. 

You have simply convinced me that if one day you produce an addon for this simulator I will avoid it

Edited January 4, 2020 by azulkb

[mSparks 2,086]

2 hours ago, Pastaiolo said:

So let them?

if it can not be compared with new simulators like ps4 ace combat 7 (best weather in VR), dcs(best combat) or xp11(best everything else)

why let them compare it with 20 years old esp?

hyperbole statements like "its light years ahead of all the other simulators [last worked on 20 years ago]" are just annoying and serve no purpose other than for dishonest marketing to the poor souls still stuck in the MSFT bubble.

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by mSparks

[Nedo68 533]

The game is still cooking, first ingredients are just ready, the rest is just peeled, gutted, cut, salt and pepper are not even added!
And only with the dessert everything becomes complete! 😁

[ludekbrno 302]

On 1/3/2020 at 7:13 AM, Anders Bermann said:

Such a shame, really... I kinda liked the photogrammetry trees, since I felt it blended well with the surrounding environment. A lot better, than with autogen-trees.

I'm hoping, that Asobo will put them back - or at least have a way of switching between autogen trees and photogrammetry trees... 🙂

Photogrametry trees are good, but do not forget, that photogrametry will cover only a very small percentage of the earth's surface (only about 400 cities and some other locations for start). So almost everywhere will be only autogen trees and buildings. But I believe, that Asobo can easily adjust size and types of autogen trees to close to reality, not a big problem 🙂

[mSparks 2,086]

38 minutes ago, ludekbrno said:

Photogrametry trees are good, but do not forget, that photogrametry will cover only a very small percentage of the earth's surface (only about 400 cities and some other locations for start). So almost everywhere will be only autogen trees and buildings. But I believe, that Asobo can easily adjust size and types of autogen trees to close to reality, not a big problem 🙂

photogrametry was really the only thing that made it stand out from the competition that any of the competition can't easily implement themselves (if they havent already).

So your statement has more significance than you seem to think.

Its also "not easy" else all the others that havent sat idle for 20 years would already have done it. Nearly all the earths surface is either water or trees, with a hint of ice and desert.

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by mSparks

[Dominique_K 10,138]

1 hour ago, ludekbrno said:

  But I believe, that Asobo can easily adjust size and types of autogen trees to close to reality, not a big problem 🙂

Easy or not I don't know, but I still wait after several decades of simming for an excellent rendition of trees in their diversity, including flower trees.  I think that no FS design team had a vegetation/tree specialist and were mostly guided by simplified LC vegetation coarse classifications. I hope that Asobo will get some guidance from botanists as they get some from a  Ph.D in roof reconstruction 😀! 

Edited January 4, 2020 by domkle

[ludekbrno 302]

2 hours ago, mSparks said:

 

 

2 hours ago, mSparks said:

photogrametry was really the only thing that made it stand out from the competition that any of the competition can't easily implement themselves (if they havent already).

So your statement has more significance than you seem to think.

Its also "not easy" else all the others that havent sat idle for 20 years would already have done it. Nearly all the earths surface is either water or trees, with a hint of ice and desert.

 

Sorry, again wrong... Not only photogrametry, you forget detailed ortho + accurate autogen on whole planet, like no other sim! And now with snow and probably all seasons.

Edited January 4, 2020 by ludekbrno

[Bottle 663]

1 hour ago, domkle said:

I hope that Asobo will get some guidance from botanists as they get some from a  Ph.D in roof reconstruction 😀! 

The project lead is a self confessed biologist by training (remember the hibernating bears?) so there's hope.

[mSparks 2,086]

19 minutes ago, ludekbrno said:

detailed ortho + accurate autogen on whole planet, like no other sim!

already available for several years with ortho4xp and osm data for xp11 (free)

Also now being hand tuned and resold by Orbx with phenominal results (e.g. perfect trees, buildings roads (not quite perfect yet) and attractions) for a not unreasonable fee.

sorry, not new or that exciting.

photogrammetry (taking out the human legwork) WAS the difference between what exists already.

Edited January 4, 2020 by mSparks

[ual763 361]

6 minutes ago, mSparks said:

already available for several years with ortho4xp and osm data for xp11 (free)

Also now being hand tuned and resold by Orbx with phenominal results (e.g. perfect trees, buildings roads (not quite perfect yet) and attractions) for a not unreasonable fee.

sorry, not new or that exciting.

photogrammetry (taking out the human legwork) WAS the difference between what exists already.

You’re being dense on purpose now.  In XP11, yes ortho4xp is free, but it is a royal pita to install it across the entire planet, not to mention the awful performance (relatively) and huge storage space needed.  ORBX is good no doubt, but it also suffers from lackluster performance and large storage requirements.  Not to mention you pay good money for a relatively small area.  

MS/ASOBO is giving us the ENTIRE planet with this technology (in addition to 400 separate areas of photogrammetry) all in one package, and at one price.  This entire thread has turned into a complete bashing fest.  That is not what I intended.