"Religious Fanaticism..."

[LAdamson 240]

He,he...........This is how an article in the newest AOPA PILOT magazine describes the rivalry between Microsoft's Flight Simulator and X-Plane :D Quote: "Comparing Flight Simulator to X-Plane is like comparing Windows to Macs. Both operating systems and simulations inspire devotion bordering on religious fanaticism." Anyway, a great article worth reading; and one of the highlights is the fact, that contrary to past thinking, more than not, flight simming can be very beneficial to a student before taking flight instruction. Seems that the student is much more prepared. But then, I'm not surprised one bit! :)L.Adamson

[Guest]

What, they dare compare the heretic X-plane to MSFS? :D

[greggerm 312]

What, they dare compare the heretic MSFS to X-Plane? :) :)

[Guest christianholmes]

I'll definately agree with that (as per my other thread) but I think it's really important that the learning is structured. I fear that most people that assume flight sim is truly just like flying a plane will learn bad habits that they may have to unlearn when they start flying for real. I would be willing to bet that for most people it simply won't reduce the amount of training you need in a real plane- but it will make that training slightly easier. Don't forget you have to pass a written exam too- you will learn 100x more in ground school taught by a real instructor than you will in a virtual school, albeit flight sim's lessons or another product. The important part is being able to raise your hand and ask questions rather than not understanding something, or understanding it incorrectly. How many people here who have just taken to flight sim's skies can tell me (without looking it up) what the VFR visibility requirements are for class bravo airspace? In flight sim, airspace is just something marked on the map if you even bother to look for it. If you violate somebody's airspace, flight sim does nothing. Or, what is the emergency transponder code? What does "PAN PAN" mean? What does "MAY DAY" mean? Who cares if your pattern is perfect- when your prop goes flying off because a mechanic forgot to safety wire it, you're going to want to know the above answers without a single thought.So I guess what I am saying is that if you plan on taking lessons in real life- maybe run through flight sim's lessons, and buy a virtual ground school course. Learn it inside and out. Learn to use the navigation instruments, and how to set the flight instruments, and the different systems, but don't spend too much time trying to perfect your landings because it will be 2% relavent in your real life training. Spend your time learning weather systems, regulations, and other things that will help you when you take ground school for real- which can contribute significantly to your understanding of important things.This is just my opinion, but I think self-studying for the written is completely idiotic. You will miss out on great anecdotes from a real life pilot, and will not have the opportunity to ask important questions in person.Landing a plane in real life is not that hard- so don't bother "practicing" that on flight sim. And forget about stalls- flight sim just doesn't model them well. You will be much better off being extremely competent at reading and recognizing weather. Become an amatuer meteorologist, and learn to forecast weather. Learn how to keep yourself out of situations that kill people regularly.Sorry if I'm rambling- but I've been simming for 21 years, and a current student pilot, so this is very much something I'm familiar with. I love flight sim, and I'm not slamming it- I am currently building a Warrior cockpit for myself to practice procedures- but I only feel comfortable doing it after I know how to fly it the correct way in the real plane. Even the manual from the Austalian sims Warrior is missing some vital information.Anyway, have fun- but when you step into that left seat for the first time for real- check your ego at the door.

[greggerm 312]

(Removed by me...)

[Guest Shalomar]

Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!I can't remember where I saw the article, but I recall a cadet at Pensacola who graduated at the top of his class- so high that an investigation resulted. Turns out he had used the "design a plane feature" in a sim and got an aircraft to fly like the Mentor he was training in. This must have been a long time ago unless there was a misquote, cuz MSFS dropped that feature- when??? Makes more sense if he had actually used X plane. The article continued to say since then every cadet was being given a copy of MSFS and a computer to run it on.As a "training aid", it is mostly how you use it. It does some things very well, as long as you know the limitations and don't hop the fence at your local airport for your "first solo", you won't get in too much trouble.At the risk of being even more heretical, it won't be too long before the major competition for MSFS comes from freeware shells. When you consider the vast majority of what makes a sim is third party, and even payware can be ported to a freeware shell, it's not too implausible. A sim half as good for free would be acceptable to the vast majority of people in the user base- which ain't us.Best Regards, Donny:-wave

[RFields5421 1]

I remember the article about Navy flight training. My understanding is now they have their own customized version.FS will never replace initial flight training - but it can have some value.Flight instructors I've talked with say the main problem for students with FlightSim and X-Plane backgrounds is they keep their head in the cockpit too much.They concentrate on the ball and not on the horizon.They seem to have a harder time understanding what the feel of the aircraft in the seat of their pants is telling them.They do trust the instruments, and do understand that the primary instruments are telling them.They can usually visualize and fly an ILS approach without a problem.They are terrible in basic pattern work and have trouble developing situational awareness - wanting again to focus on the panel, not the sky and ground outside.A couple have had students progress into IFR certification - and they say the FS folks have an easier time getting that rating.Flight training in the Dallas area is conducted in two ways. A couple of formal full-time school companies, one weekend ground school and week day flight company, and the majority in individual instructor training - supplemented by the Cessna computer course.Again, the number of instructors I've talked with is only a very small sample - but they sum it up as up to the student. Some very good, some very bad - the numbers do not change with FS.The only time they get upset is if a student is dumb enough to complain or say the plane doesn't react right because it's not that way in FS.Personally I think anyone who doesn't understand that FS gives you only about 20% of the flight experience is too dumb to have a driver's license, much less a PPL.

[LAdamson 240]

>Flight instructors I've talked with say the main problem for>students with FlightSim and X-Plane backgrounds is they keep>their head in the cockpit too much.>It's mentioned in the article. An interviewed instructor, says no problem. He just covers up the intruments until the student looks outside. L.Adamson

[LAdamson 240]

>>This is just my opinion, but I think self-studying for the>written is completely idiotic. You will miss out on great>anecdotes from a real life pilot, and will not have the>opportunity to ask important questions in person.I completed my PPL ground school years ago, with the King courses, and then went to a ground school for instrument.>Landing a plane in real life is not that hard- so don't>bother "practicing" that on flight sim. However, we do land a few hundred times to get it right, under varying conditions, through the course of training. But I agree, you won't get the feel for landing on a PC, but once you have the "feel", the PC can do a surprisingly good imitation, with the mind filling in the blanks.L.Adamson

[Guest beana51]

I thought the article in AOPA was terrific. Its good to get a refreshing point of view re:simming from out side these forums.It seems ,our simming thing ,is Finlay getting to be taken a little more serous in he real world of aviation.Of course ,Simming ,as in the airline business is an accepted way to practice all sorts of things that can go wrong in a cockpit of an airliner.That is a science,conducted by a team of qualified people, who have a specific agenda.Their priority is safety. Our "LIL" magic carpet ,has almost reached the status of being a primitive way to introduce the theory,and practice of flight, altho ,untutored, to all. When I hear that a young man,after having fun, and experience with our Simulators,goes out and does it,for real,It is a great thing.If the familiarizations of the basic functions of the controls,or what straight and level looks like,help, than it is a big advantage.It has been shown Simulation time can accelerate the learning process.Provided ,that the preliminary impressions are not the wrong ones.Its hard to unteach a bad habit. I for one love my Sim,I also love the real planes I fly.The two can overlap.Like many ,I review a trip on the Sim ,using its navigational features.And execute them in the real air. Nevertheless, its not real.As surly as a "Motorcycle" Sim wont teach you to ride a bike. Nor will a boat sailing Sim teach you to sail a yacht,The Arcade factor just won't do it.Ya gotta feel it in yer bones,and more importantly yer "BUTT" Those of us who love flight,love Simulation, as surly as watching a kite fly,a buzzard soaring,a plane overhead, interest in home simulation can go only one way,up. It has started to beckon many to real flight.For that alone ,its a wonderful thing.But even if it did not,its still a great vehicle for ones imagination,and dreams. I Strongly suggest, for those who never sat in a real plane at the controls ,make that one of your top priority's.Then, and only then will you be able to evaluate, truthfully, how flying can relate to you,and only you.We all have differant points of view,but only yours count. Meanwhile,have fun, REGARDS VIN

[Guest christianholmes]

Just to give you all an update-Obviously I have strong opinions :)I really think self studying is nuts- but that is based on my background. Many people grow up around pilots, and know many pilots they can just ask questions when they have one. I know several commercial pilots, but I'm not going to call them every night with questions about millibar conversions. I need an real human there to tell me the way it really is. King Schools can't write "The FAA says you must remain 2000 feet horizontal from clouds, but if it's a very clear day, and the cloud is really just a small wispy area that you can easily see through, then if you must you can fly closer." They would get sued- but according to the instructors, "many" people will, at "their discretion" as PIC, make safety calls that will sometimes violate FAA requlations. If avoiding a small cloud is going to take you over water or dense terrain at a low altitude- you have a safety call to make- regardless of regulations. As pilot in command you are ultimately responsible for the safety of you and your passengers, and that safety may require you to break rules. I don't think the written books can explain some things very well.And about FS- Even though I tend to question it's realism, I just spoke with another student who has 5 more hours than me, and has not landed yet. So, I have to wonder if FS has played more of a role than I initially thought.I am excited to finish my simulator to put it through it's paces and see how it really "feels" when I don't have to constantly use the mouse. I got my split master switch, and rocker switches last night, am a little closer- hope to have it done in a week or two.

[Guest beana51]

" Obviously I have strong opinions" So do the FAA!! VFR FLIGHT "The standard visibility minimums three statue miles The standard minimum distance from clouds is, 500ft. below,1000ft above,and 2000ft horizontally. The standard ceiling is at least 1000ft. above the surface." Once again ,in the AOPA Nov. issue there is a great article Re: this, called "VFR WEATHER MINIMUMS PART 1,by AOPA General Counsel John S. Yodice. Its getting to be more an more that pilots need legal advice to fly. VIN

[Guest christianholmes]

Unless of course you are talking about Special VFR, or VFR in class B airspace. And three miles really falls into the marginal VFR category. Airspace rules can be pretty whacky, and let's face it- aviation is based on the honor system until something goes wrong. The bottom line is that it's up to you to make sure nothing goes wrong.

[Guest beana51]

My point ZAXTLY!! Ya gotta know these things. The FAA can trip you up in many ways. Legal advice helps,before that is, Or else you will be pulled down and told "Boy,yo in a heap of trouble"Then you may very well need a lawyer. However on the Sim,you can be your own FAA!! "HAVE FUN" VIN

[Jeff Nielsen 1,386]

This is good. I must have forum-itis tonight.When I first started to fly again in Sundowners (4 seater 180hp), I had so many bad habits from the computer sim it was unreal.On the first flight I set up an ILS (flying VFR--LOL), flew a very wide pattern, and was in the flare a good 3-5 miles out from the end of the runway. If I was to have an engine out I would have never made the runway. I was in the dog gone flare to boot at minimum controlable airspeed +/- a few...Vref for a sundowner...hehe.My instructor told me I wasn't flying a friggin 727 and told me to get outside the #### airplane.Anyways, "I learned about flying from that"