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aerostar

A Few Questions - Primus 1000

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..  with their version of the Primus 1000 avionics suite  is it now possible to save and load flightplans  ?

Are there any bugs with capturing altitude set  or any Autopilot functions ?  

Does it fly to waypoints outwith a flightplan and then able to  retrack the flightplan correctly (ie - not picking a point midway between the the waypoint you set DTO and the previous waypoint on the Flightplan leg )?

Are the SIDs STARs working and can you alter/change  them and the Flightplan in flight without crashing the sim ?

thanks for any info...

Edited by aerostar

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Yeah, I'm sort of straddling the fence on this one too. Carenado has never built anything that will fly Direct To from current position. Always wants to join what would be a Direct To path from the departure airport. Unless they build something that operates outside the limited P3D default nav system, we'll just have to keep using the GTN750 with the 3-year-old database.

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2 minutes ago, TedK said:

........    to keep using the GTN750 with the 3-year-old database.

...  if you download the latest Garmin Trainer software then you will get Airac 1909 ...  

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3 hours ago, aerostar said:

...  if you download the latest Garmin Trainer software then you will get Airac 1909 ...  

Ah, I will have to take a look. I may have downloaded prior to Sept 2019.

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I went against my better judgement and purchased the 560 XL. Big mistake. Same dysfunctional NAV system. Trying to go Direct To can actually wipe out the entire FP. The FADEC will cause the thing to overspeed when in CRU mode. I installed the GTN 750 only to find out that the AP NAV mode will not activate when using the GTN 750. Their dumb FMS pads are still in the middle console with the GTN 750 installed, which is entirely stupid. And the APU will not start. And of course, there is no documentation to tell you how to start it. Looks simple, but it's Carenado. The landing gear lights still indicate 3 green even when they're up. I've spent half of the evening filling out support tickets hoping that they care enough to fix the bugs. Other than the eye candy, their products are pretty useless, at least in P3D. I could kick myself in the you-know-what for thinking that maybe this Carenado product would be different. Dysfunctional eye candy. Best description.

Edited by TedK

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2 hours ago, TedK said:

The FADEC will cause the thing to overspeed when in CRU mode. 

The problem is your dysfunctional system knowledge.  FADEC has absolutely nothing to do with speed. It's no autothrottle and hence can't alter the thrust setting.  

If you fly with the throttles in the CRU detent at low or medium altitude, the 560 will of course overspeed since the engines are delivering maximum cruise thrust.

Concerning the APU start, there's enough info in this forum to find out that the APU does start. 

Edited by FDEdev

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3 hours ago, TedK said:

I went against my better judgement and purchased the 560 XL. Big mistake. Same dysfunctional NAV system.

Me too....   and yes same NAV system.   I could CRY !!!! .

Right.   I am going to TRY to fit Ernie Alston's (    http://www.isgsim.com/    )   'Primus 1000 ' Gauge pack.

Remember what 'JanekBin' did for the Citation S550 ,   that plane flew a treat after that MOD.. 

Now, if I remember he made a   'blanking plate'   that fitted over the existing FMS and laid the new one on top and it worked. ...possibly do this with the Control panels on the dashboard too...

Anyone have any input to help get this done ?   

 

   

 

 

 

Edited by aerostar

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8 hours ago, FDEdev said:

The problem is your dysfunctional system knowledge.  FADEC has absolutely nothing to do with speed. It's no autothrottle and hence can't alter the thrust setting.  

If you fly with the throttles in the CRU detent at low or medium altitude, the 560 will of course overspeed since the engines are delivering maximum cruise thrust.

Concerning the APU start, there's enough info in this forum to find out that the APU does start. 

How arrogant of you to assume my knowledge. With over 22,000 hours of real-time flying, I know a little more than a flight sim desk-top captain. I know exactly what a FADEC system does and how it works. Simply explained, it manages the engine to perform at maximum EFFICIENCY (not max power) for the that particular phase of flight, based on atmospheric conditions and is not influenced by air/mach speed. Thus, flying at FL390 the thing shouldn't red line while in CRU setting. What would be the point of having a cruise setting if it was unusable? In this Carenado feeble attempt, FADEC is only a placebo as the virtual detents do nothing but activate lights and create audible clicks. There is no power/thrust management modeled with the detents; it's just a basic throttle. And as far as the APU goes: DC master switch on, RH Fuel Boost on, APU master switch on, start switch clicked, held for 2 seconds and nothing. Any student pilot with fewer than 10 hours and the ability to read English could figure that out. This bird is full of bugs. The 3-green gear lights never go out after gear retraction. The AP won't go into NAV mode when using the GTN 750. It has a lot of potential but seems to be nothing but a makeover of their S550.

Edited by TedK
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1 hour ago, TedK said:

1. I know exactly what a FADEC system does and how it works. Simply explained, it manages the engine to perform at maximum EFFICIENCY (not max power) for the that particular phase of flight.

2. In this Carenado feeble attempt, FADEC is only a placebo as the virtual detents do nothing but activate lights and create audible clicks. There is no power/thrust management modeled with the detents; 

1. You apparently don't. I've never seen a thrust setting table for 'maximum efficiency' (whatever this means) and FADEC  has absolutely nothing to do with a 'particular phase of flight'.  It simply keeps the engine within the selected limits. It's solely your responsibility to manage the speed by adjusting pitch and power.

2. I don't know what you are doing wrong, but if you don't notice a significant N1/N2 reduction when retarding the throttles from takeoff to climb and further to cruise, then there's something wrong with your install.

 

Edited by FDEdev

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7 hours ago, FDEdev said:

1. You apparently don't. I've never seen a thrust setting table for 'maximum efficiency' (whatever this means) and FADEC  has absolutely nothing to do with a 'particular phase of flight'.  It simply keeps the engine within the selected limits. It's solely your responsibility to manage the speed by adjusting pitch and power.

2. I don't know what you are doing wrong, but if you don't notice a significant N1/N2 reduction when retarding the throttles from takeoff to climb and further to cruise, then there's something wrong with your install.

 

Apparently I DO know. You should study up on it and not base what you think to be accurate on a computer game. Adjusting pitch works in takeoff and climb, but obviously in cruise, pitch is not an option. In the real world, unless you're flying extremely light or descending, the airplane is not going to red line in CRU setting flying straight and level at normal cruise altitudes.

"FADEC works by receiving multiple input variables of the current flight condition including air density, throttle lever position, engine temperatures, engine pressures, and many other parameters. The inputs are received by the EEC and analyzed up to 70 times per second. Engine operating parameters such as fuel flow, stator vane position, air bleed valve position, and others are computed from this data and applied as appropriate. FADEC also controls engine starting and restarting. The FADEC's basic purpose is to provide optimum engine efficiency for a given flight condition. [or phase of flight]

FADEC not only provides for efficient engine operation, it also allows the manufacturer to program engine limitations and receive engine health and maintenance reports. For example, to avoid exceeding a certain engine temperature, the FADEC can be programmed to automatically take the necessary measures without pilot intervention."

Something tells me you don't even own this Carenado aircraft. There is a power reduction, but apparently not enough. The model needs to be tweaked. I've sent Carenado a list of bugs, including gear indicator lights that go on an off with the panel lights instead of being linked to the actual gear position. The only time you get "Three Green" is if the RH panel light is on, and they stay on no matter what position the gear is in. You can't arm APPR when executing a GPS approach. Same thing happens on their ATR-72. Eaglesoft got their FADEC modeling about 99% accurate on their Citation X. Works flawlessly. Carenado's DOES NOT.

 

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4 hours ago, TedK said:

Adjusting pitch works in takeoff and climb, but obviously in cruise, pitch is not an option. In the real world, unless you're flying extremely light or descending, the airplane is not going to red line in CRU setting flying straight and level at normal cruise altitudes.

There is a power reduction, but apparently not enough. The model needs to be tweaked. 

Since you made the wrong claim that FADEC is flight phase dependent, I mentioned that pitch and power are the only ways to control the speed if you don't have autothrottle/autothrust installed. 

You still haven't understood the FADEC basics. Again, the takeoff, climb and cruise detents have absolutely nothing to do with VMO/MMO. They are not related in any way.

At cruise the engines simply deliver the maximum cruise RPM, which increases with altitude until ~30000ft. If you are exeeding VMO/MMO you have to manually retard the throttles.

I don't know what you consider a 'normal' cruise altitude. The flight manual cruise tables are available from FL150 to FL450. 

Suggest you take off at MTOW, climb to FL450 and try to exceed MMO at CRU, but I can tell you in advance that it will not work, most likely not even at TO.

According to the real world performance tables the XLS cruises at FL400 @19000lbs at 431ktas = M.0751. Hence the power reduction (which you initially even denied) is apparently correct. No need to tweak anything concerning performance.

 

 

Edited by FDEdev
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I am the guy who did the flight dynamics, the systems and the avionics, including the FADEC for the Citation X at Eaglesoft... just so we're clear on my knowledge level.

FADEC ensures consistent thrust based on selected throttle position, regardless of altitude.  It does not control aircraft speed whatsoever.  Never has, never will.  If you are in the CRU detent, as has already been stated, that means the FADEC will ensure the engine RPMs are set to provide the maximum cruise thrust level.  This does not directly correlate to either VMO or MMO.

All of that being said... having not touched the Carenado XLS... I would not know what is right or wrong regarding it.. but I do know that most business jets (even the Mustang!) will exceed VMO at low altitudes with maximum cruise thrust.

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Ed Wilson

Mindstar Aviation
My Playland - I69

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1 hour ago, WarpD said:

I am the guy who did the flight dynamics, the systems and the avionics, including the FADEC for the Citation X at Eaglesoft... just so we're clear on my knowledge level.

FADEC ensures consistent thrust based on selected throttle position, regardless of altitude.  It does not control aircraft speed whatsoever.  Never has, never will.  If you are in the CRU detent, as has already been stated, that means the FADEC will ensure the engine RPMs are set to provide the maximum cruise thrust level.  This does not directly correlate to either VMO or MMO.

All of that being said... having not touched the Carenado XLS... I would not know what is right or wrong regarding it.. but I do know that most business jets (even the Mustang!) will exceed VMO at low altitudes with maximum cruise thrust.

Just so we understand, I've been flying in the real world for 45 years. I DO understand how FADEC works. I KNOW it DOES NOT control airspeed. I don't understand how anyone has interpreted my comments as to thinking otherwise. It IS designed to operate the engines at optimum efficiency for the power setting selected. Manufacturer's words; not mine. The EEC uses air density and temp as 2 of several factors in calculating optimum efficiency. And as I have previously stated, the Eaglesoft Citation X FADEC modeling performs exactly as it should (BTW, I hope Eaglesoft offers a P3D V4 udate). Given the same conditions in both your Citation X and Carenado's 560XLS, taking off at MTOW, climbing to FL400, and after achieving level cruise, the XLS will over-speed in CRU detent. After the climb it's probably down to 19,000 lbs gross weight. I have screens shots of a similar test made at FL450. By the time the fuel had burned off and the gross weight was around 18,500, it was over speeding at >M.74. Last night I experimented by reducing the static thrust from 3991 to 3800 and it performed, in CRU, exactly as per the published performance charts for Max Cruise. ~M.71. As for power reduction from CLB to CRU, it was less than 1% difference at FL400. Something like 97.3% in CLB to 96.7% in CRU or something similar. I don't have my notes with me at the moment. The XLS fuel-flow display is skewed. I have no idea what they're using as a measuring unit, but the fuel flow as indicated by the GTN750 was pretty darn close to the performance charts.

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1 hour ago, TedK said:

1.I have screens shots of a similar test made at FL450. By the time the fuel had burned off and the gross weight was around 18,500, it was over speeding at >M.74.

2 .Last night I experimented by reducing the static thrust from 3991 to 3800 and it performed, in CRU, exactly as per the published performance charts for Max Cruise. ~M.71.

3. As for power reduction from CLB to CRU, it was less than 1% difference at FL400. 

1. I have no idea how your 560 can 'overspeed' at .74 because MMO is .75. Since you are exceeding .74, are you sure about your gross weight and that you are testing at ISA conditions?

2. Where did you get the .71 from?  The performance tables state FL450 at 18000lbs 422ktas =.735  and for 19000lbs 413ktas =.720.  I get 416ktas = .727.  

3. And the problem is?

How much RW jet time do you have if I may ask?  

 

 

Edited by FDEdev

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In the 46 years following my first hour of dual, I (officially) accumulated 5,100 piston; 15,500 turbojet. I began flying at 14, soloed on my 16th birthday and retired on my 60th.

The M.71 came from referencing the wrong POH. My mistake. Listen, this bird is going to the hanger until Carenado comes out with V1.2. Too many bugs to be any fun. I have sent in bug reports. Let's see if they agree and fix them or just accuse me of "not holding it right."

I contacted a colleague who has extensive experience in an XLS and Excel. The majority of their company flights are between FL370 and FL430. FL410 would be the average altitude for East bound flights over 400 km. FL400 for West bound, depending on weather and winds aloft, of course. Average pax load is 4. He said "Rarely" do they ever have to pull the throttles out of CRU before TOD to avoid an over speed. He also flew the C750. He said that as long as you fly at the "optimum altitude" as calculated by the FMS, you could fly all day in CRU and never over speed. My only experience in light jet with FADEC is the C510, which is a very forgiving aircraft. Set it and forget it. Almost intuitive. Difficult to unintentionally over speed.

But I'm not interested in debating the FADEC issue any further. We can disagree and leave it at that. Life's too short.

Wasn't this thread about the Primus 1000?

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