Major developers shelve P3D development

[Johnny19 344]

I really have to stop reading topics like these of the end of the sim world outside of upcoming MFS. ..... NDA!!!! Anyways, I do enjoy both MFS alpha and the p3d. Enjoy what you have and stop complaining. It won't come any faster, the world will not stop spinning, addon devs won't dissapear together with xplane or p3d. Listen to the guys here who know what they are talking about. 

Take care and happy flying

[Doug47 574]

45 minutes ago, Chapstick said:

That's funny, because from what we've seen so far, MSFS is likely going to have more accurate flight dynamics out of the box than P3D. There's nothing we've heard to this point that gives credence to the idea that MSFS is going to be worse for "serious" simmers vs. P3D or XP, so this seems more like a passive-aggressive swipe at people who are excited for MSFS. When people talk about the lack of communication from LM, it's not about the forum posts, but about the lack of insight into what they might be planning. Presumably you're testing V5 right now, but for those of us on the outside, we just see a stagnating platform. 

Exactly. If  “1000+” developers still can’t compete with a basic alpha version, no one is in a position to bash the first flight simulator to truly take us into reality. 

[Quasimodo 505]

9 hours ago, cwburnett said:

Exhibit A is the note from Mir at FlightBeam who, on November 15 said on the Flightbeam website:

Quote

“As a thank you to customers who are continuing to purchase from us and support our efforts after all the MS2020 updates, I’m significantly raising the Flightbeam points earned per purchase. While the new sim is very exciting and we’re planning on developing for it, surviving as a tiny shop until release is proving very difficult. My heartfelt thanks to customers who have continued to purchase and support us and keeping us alive.” (https://www.flightbeam.net/a-thank-you-to-those-who-are-continuing-to-support-us/)

Well, I'm not in the business but if I wear I know what I would do. Granted no initiative is without risk but acting on instinct I would say that the release of MSFS is going to have a huge impact on the flight sim genre in gaming. And by huge I mean HUGE! I'll hazard a guess that the participation rate will increase by at least 10 fold. So if there are a million active flight sim hobbyist now by the end of next year there will be perhaps 10 million.

Loath as I am to admit it. I think that PMDG got it right with the NGXu and hedged their beats too.

So to recap If you bought the $100 NGXu PMDG guaranteed that the full price of that purchase will go as a credit toward the purchase of the NG3 when its released for MSFS.

I my opinion all developers who want to keep selling their wares in this uncertain period should follow suite. And frankly on all of there latest releases.

Lets look a year down the road after persuing such a stategy. MSFS is released, developers get the SDK to figure out. For arguments sake let say an aicraft addon needs only an installer and a couple of weeks work to get it working in MSFS legacy mode and an airport needs an installer and some work around the edges to install. Let's say a couple of weeks work to get it in there and working.

Granted they will want to take advantage of the new market and if there is indeed a 10 fold increase they can reasonably expect a 10 fold increase in sales. So they only have to honour full purchase price credit commitment to 10% of their customers. The other 90% pay full purchase price.

I only enter into win/win transactions. Flightbeam points wouldn't cut it for me.

Bottom line. If your business is failing its your fault not your customers. Why should I buy an addon for FSX or P3D just to discover that after relatively minor work its released for MSFS and developer wants full price from customers who bought the earlier platform version.

Generally speaking people learn from experience. And we've see this before. When all the developers came on board with Prepar3D we all know to all intents and purpose FSX addons worked fine in P3D. Heck most of us where shoe horning them into P3D before the developers even gave us installer. But in some instances (PMDG😉) simmers who had fairly recently purchased addons for FSX found that they had to pay the full asking price all over again for the exact same addons.

Granted some developers did provide free continuity from one platform to the other or charged a reasonable update fee.

But if developer a feeling the pinch now don't blame the simmers who a sitting on there hands.

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

BTW, I'm willing to beat that after MSFS is released, the NG3 will go to market at about $39-$49 and PMDG know that. So basically, if that pans out, they just screwed us all again paying full price for the same addon twice. It would be true to form Eh?🤣

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Avidean

[N400QW 205]

After watching some meaningless "news item" recently it occurred to me that we are living in a world where "speculation" is assumed as truth and has for some become a "hobby".

Why not enjoy the sim platforms you prefer and let the "speculation hobby" decline in importance.😊

Edited January 26, 2020 by N400QW
typo

[toprob 105]

1 hour ago, Avidean said:

But if developer a feeling the pinch now don't blame the simmers who a sitting on there hands.

I do see things a little differently, as a small developer. I came to this as a simmer, and I suspect that most developers did. Sure, for most, it is a business, and we live - or die - by business principles, but it isn't a great way to make money. I could make a steadier income flipping burgers, although I wouldn't. I do this because the local community benefits, and for a long time I've been part of the local community. Luckily a lot of my customers see that, and are happy to support me when times are tough. At the moment I'm in a similar position to Flightbeam, although without the great catalogue and reputation. There are not a lot of developers doing local scenery, so it has turned into a relationship which is less like a business/customer and more like different roles in the same community. 

As a single developer, it is inevitable that I go broke very soon, but that won't stop me, and it won't be the first time. I'll do this until I can't any more, and I'm resigned to being poor but happy. I like what I do. I would be surprised if most developers weren't in the same position, give or take a few thousand dollars. 

I do think that it's too early to make a decision on how to charge for addons for the new sim. But it won't take long once the SDK is released. In the meantime, give some thought to supporting your local developer! 

[Quasimodo 505]

3 hours ago, N400QW said:

"speculation" is assumed as truth

without speculation there wouldn't be any truth. That's how we first get to the truth. And time will tell whether a speculation turns out to be the truth. Speculation is also how we make good investment. Some peoples speculations and better than others. My speculation based on years of experience as a casual flight simmer and years of running businesses is that keeping the stings on the flight sim addon purse tight at this time is a smart course of action. Look if your business is in trouble you better come up with a better plan than asking you customers to spend lots money on products that might be consigned to the recycle bin in a few months.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Avidean

[David Mills 4,761]

On 1/24/2020 at 2:43 PM, Christopher Low said:

In fact, MSFS will be so good that it will also include uninstallers for P3D and XPlane....free of charge!

Actually, that's not a bad idea. The uninstallers will definitely come in handy.  

[GSalden 4,656]

One moment guys... I’ll have to refill my popcorn bowl...

...

...

...

Ok, I am back. You may continue 😂

[Scottoest 1,561]

On 1/24/2020 at 10:53 AM, Avidean said:

Expectations are very high indeed and its fair to say that MS and Asobo have raised those expectation. In my experience, and I think this is a well known truism that in successful business it is prudent to fall short of expectations. Sounds counter intuitive but their you go. I always say temper your expectations and you won't be disappointed.

Honestly what I see going on in this community with regard to Microsoft Flight Simulator is the setup for a great disappointment.

All together now:

Humpty Dumpty set on a wall.

I've occasionaly worried about this myself, and yet, at every turn people seem to become more and more positive about what Asobo are doing with MSFS.  That includes leaked reactions on Reddit and whatnot, from people who are currently in the alpha test.  The most consistent reaction I've seen, is that theatmopheric and weather stuff is incredible, and the sim runs surprisingly well for the fidelity on screen (the big thing seems to be having 32GB of RAM).  One guy on Reddit said he was running the alpha on a Geforce 1060, 1440p at high/ultra settings, and getting a steady 30fps flying over dense urban areas.

Some people absolutely need to slow the hype train a little bit, before they expect something that could never possibly live up to expectations, but all signs point to MSFS being a big leap over the current norm in a ton of areas.  And why wouldn't it be?  It's being made by a large studio with huge financial backing, has been in development for years, and has complete access to data like Bing Maps.

And isn't it nice to be excited and jubilant about a new flight sim on the horizon again, that has the potential to really shake up the tired, staid, comfortable norm?  And if you want to wait a while, it's not like your current installations of other sims are going to delete themselves the day MSFS comes out.

The thinly veiled sour grapes some people have towards MSFS, continues to baffle and amuse me.  Especially a few of the 3PD devs.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Scottoest

[pmb 5,137]

14 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

I don't really understand this?  LM have been at the past 2 FSExpo's and other public conferences prior to that and will be at future events.  LM developers (not just moderators) post in LM's public forums every day:

 

Brady Butler, Rob McCarthy, Kayla Kinzel, Clifton Crane, Spencer  Nelson, Beau Hollis, etc. ...these are actual software engineers working on P3D.

I really should stay out of these threads because they are full of so much false information and I can't say anything because of NDAs and just have to let the false information sit and fester ... it's like torture.

Cheers, Rob.

While I understand and respect your point of view given the information you may have, you may, perhaps, try to understand mere mortals like me. What do we see?

-  A stunning representation by MS/Asobo on an (essentially) new simulator with not only very convincing screenshots, videos, discovery series, but also very positive official reports (like from the influencer event) as well as leaked alpha tester reports who had their hands on MSFS themselves. Based on this info, I see a new quality of flight simulation compared to (all of) our present sims. And MS/Asobo are not Dovetail, where I had the feeling of being deceived from the very beginning. They made a huge (for the branch) investment, and I find it fully justified they are convinced of their future product and are massively marketing it to regain the money. I would add, I have rarely seen such a good marketing campaign as MS/Asobo are doing.

I do not belong to those having illusions MSFS will be flawless from day 1, not at all, despite all alphas and betas. But I trust them to work quickly and hard to iron them out.

 

- No, and absolutely no info from LM on the future of Prepar3d5. Yes, the devs occasionally turn up in the forum to answer technical questions on Prepar3d4, but have always refused to make any statement on the future.

And honestly, P3D(4.5) inherited a number of annoyances which should have been solved over the last years already, like: Either autogen popping or a limited autogen radius, terrain morphing in mountains with high-resolution mesh, chewy-gum hills, floating houses from time to time... (I once made a list of 7 such terrain-engine "features" here at AVSIM). Add inconsistencies like the doubling of add-on.xml vs. scenery.cfg installations, the numerous configuration files (sometimes with the same name) scattered throughout the system. The whole maintenance is a beast, even more for the beginner. I say this, despite I have been able to tame that beast quite well myself (after < 30 yrs of experience with several sims). And despite P3D4.5 runs and looks pretty well on my system including around 650 addon sceneries (properly managed, of course).

So what do "ordinary" people like me see:

A convincing newcomer which as far as I can judge is a leap into the future vs.

A black box in the tradition of very slowly development and long-lasting bugs.

In no way do I ask you about insider info, I know (and respect) what an NDA is. But, please, try to understand the way people outside that privileged NDA circle see the world.

Kind regards, Michael

Edited January 26, 2020 by pmb

[Dominique_K 10,138]

1 hour ago, pmb said:

While I understand and respect your point of view given the information you may have, you may, perhaps, try to understand mere mortals like me. What do we see?

-  A stunning representation by MS/Asobo on an (essentially) new simulator with not only very convincing screenshots, videos, discovery series, but also very positive official reports (like from the influencer events) as well as leaked alpha tester reports who had their hands on MSFS themselves. Based on this info, I see a new quality of flight simulation compared to (all of) our present sims. And MS/Asobo are not Dovetail, where I had the feeling of being deceived from the very beginning. They made a huge (for the branch) investment, and I find it fully justified they are convinced of their future product and are massively marketing it to regain the money. I would add, I have rarely seen such a good marketing campaign as MS/Asobo are doing.

I do not belong to those having illusions MSFS will be flawless from day 1, not at all, despite all alphas and betas. But I trust them to work quickly and hard to iron them out.

 

- No, and absolutely no info from LM on the future of Prepar3d5. Yes, the devs occasionally turn up in the forum to answer technical questions on Prepar3d4, but have always refused to make any statement on the future.

And honestly, P3D(4.5) inherited a number of annoyances which should have been solved over the last years already, like: Either autogen popping or a limited autogen radius, terrain morphing in mountains with high-resolution mesh, chewy-gum hills, floating houses from time to time... (I once made a list of 7 such terrain-engine "features" here at AVSIM). Add inconsistencies like the doubling of add-on.xml vs. scenery.cfg installations, the numerous configuration files (sometimes with the same name) scattered throughout the system. The whole maintenance is a beast, even more for the beginner. I say this, despite I have been able to tame that beast quite well myself (after < 30 yrs of experience with several sims). And despite P3D4.5 runs and looks pretty well on my system including around 650 addon sceneries (properly managed, of course).

So what do "ordinary" people like me see:

A convincing newcomer which as far as I can judge is a leap into the future vs.

A black box in the tradition of very slowly development and long-lasting bugs.

In no way do I ask you about insider info, I know (and respect) what an NDA is. But, please, try to understand the way people outside that privileged NDA circle see the world.

Kind regards, Michael

Michael, I am 100% with your excellent and balanced post. 

We are both old simmers with no agenda, just loving flight simulation and the way it seems to go with the new sim. We are not beta tester bound by NDAs (if we were it would be in our signature as per Avsim policy, wouldn't it be ? Just sayin') and no consultant for anybody either. 

[pmb 5,137]

5 minutes ago, domkle said:

We are not beta tester bound by NDAs (if we were it would be in our signature as per Avsim policy, wouldn't it be ? Just sayin') and no consultant for anybody either. 

That's a nice point. So would be MSFS beta testers be obliged to identify in their sigs according to AVSIM policy or forbidden to identify by the NDA itself?

Maybe a mod can answer this?

Kind regards, Michael

[Dominique_K 10,138]

6 minutes ago, pmb said:

That's a nice point. So would be MSFS beta testers be obliged to identify in their sigs according to AVSIM policy or forbidden to identify by the NDA itself?

Maybe a mod can answer this?

Kind regards, Michael

Prepar3D also. It may stop the innuendoes to see more clearly who is an associate of whom.

Edited January 26, 2020 by domkle

[Reader 2,021]

Of course I am not a moderator but I believe that NDA stands for Non Disclosure Agreement. I think therefore that disclosing even the fact that one is subject to such an agreement would be disclosing something. It would also provoke an avalanche of questions to which NDA would forbid answers and do nothing at all to satisfy the apparent obsession with the need to know all about something that does not yet exist. 

 

 

[RALF9636 1,954]

1 hour ago, pmb said:

...

And honestly, P3D(4.5) inherited a number of annoyances which should have been solved over the last years already, like: Either autogen popping or a limited autogen radius, terrain morphing in mountains with high-resolution mesh, chewy-gum hills, floating houses from time to time... (I once made a list of 7 such terrain-engine "features" here at AVSIM). Add inconsistencies like the doubling of add-on.xml vs. scenery.cfg installations, the numerous configuration files (sometimes with the same name) scattered throughout the system. The whole maintenance is a beast, even more for the beginner. I say this, despite I have been able to tame that beast quite well myself (after < 30 yrs of experience with several sims). And despite P3D4.5 runs and looks pretty well on my system including around 650 addon sceneries (properly managed, of course).

So what do "ordinary" people like me see:

A convincing newcomer which as far as I can judge is a leap into the future vs.

A black box in the tradition of very slowly development and long-lasting bugs.

...

This is spot on.

Let me add some more of the immersion-breaking fundamental flaws of P3D:

- rotating 2D clouds

- disappearing and reappearing cloud shadows depending on view angle

- stars filling the sky while the sun is shining brightly

- AI aircraft not separated at all, thus going around all the time, also sometimes getting stuck on taxiways and eventually going poof

- dynamic lighting shining through cockpit walls

- rain that looks like a star trek warp jump

- ground service vehicles running through each other and through the user aircraft

 

 

I could probably go on like this for a while, this is just what comes to mind spontaneously.

 

This is where we stand after all these years and with 1000+ developers. Not to mention the graphics that are nowhere near the current standard of the gaming industry.

 

We have come to live with these flawed sim basics, taking these for granted over the years because it is the best we have (and don't get me wrong, it is still enjoyable). But from time to time some of us step back a bit, look at it from a distance and realize how ridiculous it is to still have all these flaws in our current sim in the year 2020. The frustration that comes from that probably is the fuel for the enthusiasm of many towards a completely new flight simulator.

 

I would love to see P3D V5 have all these flaws finally solved, along with a high definition photoreal representation of the globe. All that legally available for the consumer market without 90 % of users violating the EULAs.

It would be great to have competition. I just struggle to imagine P3D V5 will be such a leap forward. I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by RALF9636