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birdguy

Need some advice...

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Hello all,

I agree very strongly with Penzoil, I believe it just creates problems putting anything, flightsim related, into that folder. One just has to look at the incredible amount of advice to precisely that, ie avoid at all costs, to realize that there are many advocates of this principle.  

Quote, Wow, that makes my steady 30 fps seem modest by comparison :cool: Unquote.

I have ORBX OZ v2 and if I put my ORBX YBBN into the mix, I can confidently expect 6-9 FPS. However, removing YBBN (or any other ORBX OZ scenery) restores me up to 30FPS too.

I am just wondering what sort of super computer is giving users 300FPS "normal" for unadulterated P3D leaving out the equation of 90FPS with ORBX Stacked.

I would be very interested in knowing just how many P3D users are getting those figures as "Normal" and the computer specs they are using.

Regards

Tony

 

 


Tony Chilcott.

 

My System. Motherboard. ASRock Taichi X570 CPU Ryzen 9 3900x (not yet overclocked). RAM 32gb Corsair Vengeance (2x16) 3200mhz. 1 x Gigabyte Aorus GTX1080ti Extreme and a 1200watt PSU.

1 x 1tb SSD 3 x 240BG SSD and 4 x 2TB HDD

OS Win 10 Pro 64bit. Simulators ... FS2004/P3Dv4.5/Xplane.DCS/Aeroflyfs2...MSFS to come for sure.

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I run P3D quite happily from the Program Files folder on my boot drive (which is a 2TB Toshiba DT01-ACA200 7200rpm hard disk).

Edited by Christopher Low
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Christopher Low

UK2000 Beta Tester

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14 hours ago, Penzoil3 said:

The advantage would be not running out of room on your boot drive again. I prefer to never install anything to C:\Program Files, or C:\Program files (x86). I hate having Microsnot tell me what I can or can't do with a program.

Sue. We use the xml configs and the sim configs to locate the big sim and addon components onto other drives if need be. There's no need to fill in the main disk. The working files are all on drive C anyway. Don't be fooled by those posts about problems. If you remember I said that P3D is made so that it can be installed anywhere, and that's Microsoft's FSX too. The problem is the addons you install tell you to do ABC and makes sure to install in xyz because they are unfinished. The supporters are helping cover up the truths about P3D and FSX addon behaviour.

 

10 hours ago, himmelhorse said:

Hello all,

I agree very strongly with Penzoil, I believe it just creates problems putting anything, flightsim related, into that folder. One just has to look at the incredible amount of advice to precisely that, ie avoid at all costs, to realize that there are many advocates of this principle.  

Quote, Wow, that makes my steady 30 fps seem modest by comparison :cool: Unquote.

I have ORBX OZ v2 and if I put my ORBX YBBN into the mix, I can confidently expect 6-9 FPS. However, removing YBBN (or any other ORBX OZ scenery) restores me up to 30FPS too.

I am just wondering what sort of super computer is giving users 300FPS "normal" for unadulterated P3D leaving out the equation of 90FPS with ORBX Stacked.

I would be very interested in knowing just how many P3D users are getting those figures as "Normal" and the computer specs they are using.

Regards

Tony

 

 

Because you didn't follow the advice I gave. Making a drive or folder gives you Modify Access. You can use Program Files and give your app modify access. That's the professional approach. Moving the sim to avoid that is saying you don't know about modify. And so those offering the worry posts about location didn't do their homework, they don't know the system of Windows safety measure and they fooled you, and the others, including quite a few developers.

 

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Steve Waite: Engineer at codelegend.com

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So I am explaining the truths of the problem rather than the worry posts.

And they don't like it.

And these posts wont get upvoted.

Even so I continue to explain how thing really work and take abusive PMs and P-taking posts in my stride.

I am happy understanding the truths of the sim and the system and will continue to express them.

Ask those guys why the problems are generated by Program Files and they don't know.

I have engaged several of these guys and they don't know.

Most have worked it out now though, these other guys are not up to speed that's all.

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Steve Waite: Engineer at codelegend.com

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39 minutes ago, Christopher Low said:

I run P3D quite happily from the Program Files folder on my boot drive (which is a 2TB Toshiba DT01-ACA200 7200rpm hard disk).

Nice one Chris. Thanks.

There you go. Of course that's Chris, a master scenery beta tester, has a very strong sense of doing things right. He is also remaining safe to edit his panel.cfg or whatever by not having to run as admin, because he has modify access.

In Windows we use Modify Allow on the Users group where we want to write in program files because Users are authenticated by login.

These worry posters. Where's their reasoning? They don't show it their posts, they have no argument as we do. They seem to be just copies of posts from a decade ago when the Modify access was removed from program files as a safety precaution. P3D is different to FSX and they don't know why.

 

 

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Steve Waite: Engineer at codelegend.com

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I never had any problems modifying files on my old Windows 7 system, and that was with P3D installed in the Program Files folder on my boot drive. I had UAC disabled aswell, and I never had to run anything as administrator. What a wonderful world.

I switched to Windows 10 for my new PC, and installed p3d in the Program Files folder again. After installing my PMDG planes, I wanted to modify the aircraft.cfg file as I usually do (to remove the flight number part), and was greeted with a message that I was not allowed to change it. However, I remembered what Steve had said about the "User Modify permission". So I adjusted the settings for the entire Lockheed Martin Prepar3D folder, and tried again. This time, the modification was saved without a Windows protest message in sight.

Edited by Christopher Low
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Christopher Low

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28 minutes ago, Christopher Low said:

I never had any problems modifying files on my old Windows 7 system, and that was with P3D installed in the Program Files folder on my boot drive. I had UAC disabled aswell, and I never had to run anything as administrator. What a wonderful world.

I switched to Windows 10 for my new PC, and installed p3d in the Program Files folder again. After installing my PMDG planes, I wanted to modify the aircraft.cfg file as I usually do (to remove the flight number part), and was greeted with a message that I was not allowed to change it. However, I remembered what Steve had said about the "User Modify permission". So I adjusted the settings for the entire Lockheed Martin Prepar3D folder, and tried again. This time, the modification was saved without a Windows protest message in sight.

What happened was with one single tick in a box you made it operate like your old system. This is what Microsoft recommends, but everyone ignores them. There is still a difference in that you need not alter the UAC slider down. Folk do that UAC slider adjustment to enable networking when they don't have the permission set right.

Basically it's same old same old. Instructions are ignored and quality posts from professionals are ignored.

 

I you said something else I am sorry. I don't post to annoy those that post the wrong advice, I post so that those wondering about the issues have at least the proper know-how available.

If they choose to use the proper know how is up to them.

No one said not to install in a folder or a drive. But they do say not to install in program files or drive C - do they not?

That's not correct because you can if you want, you just need to know about the one little tick. And that tick is only required if you want to modify the aircraft.cfg or you install addons that don't set their permission for their user. And it's not hard to do in software installers which I professionally provide.

 

I see that folk are running as admin when they made a drive or folder which they naturally have modify access to. So why the admin there, it doesn't make the files writable to as they already are modifyable?

So the Run as Admin requirement can't be down to file access, if these guys accidently distribute malware with their product and force you to run as admin then you can be infected.

I know some things that might require Admin privilege, but not edit user files. So Admin is a separate issue which is embroiled into the program files arguments because these arguments are sustained by those that do not know.

Making a private folder for on board Software can cause issues because admins can't access them. The user elevated as admin can access them but need not elevate since they own them, so installs usually work OK.

 

Edited by SteveW
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Steve Waite: Engineer at codelegend.com

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I would just like to point out that I have not changed the UAC settings in Windows 10. I was thinking of doing this, but Steve changed my mind.

Edited by Christopher Low
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Christopher Low

UK2000 Beta Tester

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1 minute ago, Christopher Low said:

I would just like to point out that I have not changed the UAC settings in Windows 10. I was thinking of doing this, but Steve changed my mind.

No need when you know what you are doing.


Steve Waite: Engineer at codelegend.com

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11 hours ago, himmelhorse said:

Hello all,

I agree very strongly with Penzoil, I believe it just creates problems putting anything, flightsim related, into that folder. One just has to look at the incredible amount of advice to precisely that, ie avoid at all costs, to realize that there are many advocates of this principle.  

Quote, Wow, that makes my steady 30 fps seem modest by comparison :cool: Unquote.

I have ORBX OZ v2 and if I put my ORBX YBBN into the mix, I can confidently expect 6-9 FPS. However, removing YBBN (or any other ORBX OZ scenery) restores me up to 30FPS too.

I am just wondering what sort of super computer is giving users 300FPS "normal" for unadulterated P3D leaving out the equation of 90FPS with ORBX Stacked.

I would be very interested in knowing just how many P3D users are getting those figures as "Normal" and the computer specs they are using.

Regards

Tony

 

 

 

I have spent time wit at least 8 users in the past year and a half. They have been happily using their sim and installing addons and all was well.

Then one day after installing a few items at the weekend their sim crashes. We looked around and to be honest I find picking though some of those is tedious and time consuming.

With these I mention, in the end we decide to reinstall it. So we discuss that  and since we want to change something but are not sure what, we might find that a straight install as it was might surface the same problem.

So instead we install in ProgFiles and set the Modify Allow on the users group on the LM folder for those couple of addons that write there in user mode.

We find the sim works, the problem did not re-surface. We don't know if it is down to the location of the sim. probably never know.

We do find that 100% of these systems work perfectly as MS and LM expected.

No problems as you mention others so often found because put simply, they don't know what the problem is. They didn't follow the instructions from the professionals.

 

I don't say you must install anywhere specifically - that's just you guys.

 

I do recommend installing in ProgFiles and set the permission if you need to install addons that write there. Those addons work without the permission if we run as admin. No need to put your system at risk, set the secure permission that's what it is for.

 

So I installed P3DPlus. 18 core 4.1GHz turbo boost. 2TB M.2. Twinned 2080ti on NVLink, only one drives the view.

Not adjusting anything, other than an AM to use ten cores. HT on and off I saw 290fps going East over Cardiff.

I added a little bit of shadow to see the difference. I got 175fps:

 

tencoreHTgraph.jpg

 

The difference is that the HT mode fills in the sim with the background objects half as fast again.

With HT disabled I lose 1/3 my fill-in rate.

 

 

 

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Steve Waite: Engineer at codelegend.com

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So I'm walking the talk.

Those naysayers - show us what you got!

😊

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Steve Waite: Engineer at codelegend.com

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16 hours ago, Penzoil3 said:

The advantage would be not running out of room on your boot drive again. I prefer to never install anything to C:\Program Files, or C:\Program files (x86). I hate having Microsnot tell me what I can or can't do with a program.

Go get 'em Sue..................

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...the system in the graphs was at 4k res, basic straight install of P3D v4 Plus and a tweak to shadows. Flying the Mooney at 2000ft East over Cardiff.

The thing is I fully understand where Sue is coming from, and all the others here. These are not following me as far as it seems.

Better to not run out of room, and that's quite good advice.

What has emerged over the decade is that the number one problem as I see it is the progfiles/admin disaster zone created by those that should know better.

But if we do run out of room on drive C, it's no problem to place large addons in another drive. That's the beauty of P3D.

In reality MS and LM provide a luxurious platform that allows us to do anything we want.

 

 

 

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Steve Waite: Engineer at codelegend.com

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So for those looking to get big PC's that might want to know how to get the best from them. If we fly way too fast for the settings and pause we can sometimes see the odd forest or town fill in. Repeating the flight to find if when we get there, the forest is already filled in, or swathes of buildings whip in to the view more quickly.

The graphs I took a minimum of three and chose the best result from HT disabled, and the worst from HT enabled. The quality line shows a lift too because the fill-in is more efficient and does not disturb the flow of the sim causing stutter.

The loading was always faster with the paired HT LP cores enabled. I can add more and the loading time comes down further and further. The difference widens all the time.

However, a problem emerges where the main task of rendering the view appears to be affected and the flow is unsteadied.

In other words there will be an optimum load time to main task stability. Load too fast and the resources are denying the demand from the main task.

Seems natural to find there is an optimisation in this case because P3D, and FSX are hybrid programs using a main task and a coalescing set of tasks grabbing the data is handled by another task.

The monolithic tasks are best kept to a single LP of an HT core so we see the fps is almost completely unaffected by using HT or not. That's a fundamental thing that needs to be understood before moving on with this subject.

The background tasks can be paralleled onto HT cores which increases the speed of loading because it is highly multi-threaded. This side of things improves with D3D12 so that fill-in is even better.

 

At all times I am having fun studying these systems. I am not posting this to trash others ideas.

I am hoping that this kind of information can help those on their way with big systems.

Regards

Steve

 

Edited by SteveW
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Steve Waite: Engineer at codelegend.com

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3 hours ago, SteveW said:

The difference is that the HT mode fills in the sim with the background objects half as fast again.

With HT disabled I lose 1/3 my fill-in rate.

Most succinct argument in favour of HT I've seen yet!

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Kevin Firth - i9 10850K @5.2; Asus Maximus XII Hero; 32Gb Cas14 3200 DDR4; RTX3090

Beta tester for: UK2000; JustFlight; VoxATC; FSReborn; //42

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