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FS2020 Information you "may"not be aware of.

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14 minutes ago, tweekz said:

Small m is milli btw.

I should take my own advice, fixed, thank you 🙂


MSFS Alpha tester on W10 Pro x64. Hardware: AMD 5900X 12 core CPU. Cooler Master ML360R AIO, Asus X570-E mobo, Asus Strix 3090 24GB gfx card, G.Skill TridentZ 64GB (4x16) DDR4-3600 RAM, Samsung 250GB SSD (OS), Samsung 980 Pro 1TB M.2 pcie-4 NVMe SSD (MSFS install). EVGA 850w Gold cert PSU, CUK Continuum full ATX tower.  43" Sceptre 4K display. VR: HP Reverb G2.

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5 hours ago, eslader said:

I find it unfortunate that some people are still buying the ISP anti-net-neutrality line that data is a limited resource that, apparently, has to be mined or manufactured and therefore costs a lot of money any time someone uses it.

Yeah. definitely frustrating.

But also pretty complex, with lawyer-ed up peering agreements, the strong and weak, all kinds of games with large and small companies all playing monopoly in their sandpit. Cross border/undersea cable costs are very often metered by the byte.

Happy here, un-metered/uncapped 200Mb up/down FTTH. Couple of services I use start charging by the Gb once I go over ~5Tb of bandwidth. Situation is much worse in less developed countries I hear.

Edited by mSparks

AutoATC Developer, Provocateur les x bot

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On 2/15/2020 at 9:10 AM, mSparks said:

...and you have not been able to access access any of microsofts online features (even multiplayer) without a subscription for several years. So for anything you need "a good internet line" implies "needing a subscription"

Stop me if you've heard this one, but you're spreading incorrect information.  Again.

All of Microsoft's games on PC work without a subscription - including Crackdown 3, which directly used Azure computing for physics.  This includes all accompanying XBL features.

Multiplayer on console indeed requires an Xbox Live subscription, as it has for over a decade.  But this has never been the case on PC, where expectations are very different, and they know it.  On console they were able to capitalize on a complete lack of expectations, since integrated online play on consoles only became a mainstream thing in the early 2000s.

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25 minutes ago, Scottoest said:

including Crackdown 3,

pretty sure you cannot play crackdown 3 online on PC or XBOX without an xbox live subscription.

a free subscription on PC, but still a subscription.

Also, as far as I know msfs2020 isnt an xbox live game, its a Gamepass / xbox pc beta game (which has no free online option). Ive asked multiple testers to confirm this, they all went quiet. (or started throwing personal insults around/declaring everyone should put me on ignore, which i took as confirmation)

Edited by mSparks

AutoATC Developer, Provocateur les x bot

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Please, mSparks. Don't pour fuel on the fire. I approved your post but the last sentence is a taunt.

Please everyone try to get a long. 


Thank you.

Rick

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1 hour ago, mSparks said:

pretty sure you cannot play crackdown 3 online on PC or XBOX without an xbox live subscription.

a free subscription on PC, but still a subscription.

It's not a subscription - it's an ACCOUNT.  Yes, you need an Xbox Live account, which is the same as a Microsoft account.  This is no different than any number of websites or services that require you to make an account and log-in to use them.

"Xbox Live Gold" is the actual subscription, and again, it's only necessary on a console.

1 hour ago, mSparks said:

Also, as far as I know msfs2020 isnt an xbox live game, its a Gamepass / xbox pc beta game (which has no free online option). Ive asked multiple testers to confirm this, they all went quiet.

No offense intended, but you really need to stop commenting on the Microsoft/Xbox gaming ecosystem, as you clearly don't really understand how all of these components interlock.

- "Xbox Live" is just the general name of the Xbox online gaming infrastructure/services.  All Xbox console games run on it.  So do all of Microsoft's first-party PC games.  A few third-party PC games do as well.

- "Xbox Live Gold" is the name of the paid subscription tier of Xbox Live, that enables online multiplayer on console along with some other features.  This tier is only required on an Xbox console.  There's no such thing as an "Xbox Live game" - if a game has multiplayer, Xbox Live Gold is required to play that mode on console.  That goes for standalone games, Game Pass games - any games.

- "Game Pass" is a completely unrelated supplementary subscription service, that is akin to Netflix.  It features a churning rotation of ~200 games, as well as all Microsoft first-party titles the day they come out (akin to "Netflix Originals").  There's a version of Game Pass for PC, and a version for console.  They are separate subscriptions.  There's never been any game functionality or features paywalled behind Game Pass, to date - because that's not what it exists for.

- "Game Pass Ultimate" bundles both versions of Game Pass along with Xbox Live Gold, for a flat monthly rate.

As this regards MSFS, they've already confirmed you'll be able to buy the sim standalone, which means it isn't inexorably linked to Game Pass.  It is as-yet-unconfirmed whether the "live server" mode of the sim will require a supplementary subscription or not.  Asobo/Microsoft have made no definitive statements either way yet, though they have said that they know and understand what the community is accustomed to, suggesting they'd like to avoid any sort of sub model if it makes economic sense.

If there is one, it'll have nothing to do with Game Pass or XBL Gold.  And being a PC alpha currently, has nothing to do with anything.  They aren't going to discuss subscription models with insiders, then pray no one leaks anything - nor is that the purpose of an alpha test anyway.

We also know the sim apparently runs at full "live" detail on a 10 Mbps connection, from Asobo themselves, meaning Azure isn't pushing out terabytes of textures to anyone from 'the cloud'.  Azure is assisting with stuff like enhanced, smarter autogen.

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Compared to the amount of Windows users, paying one time for a copy and still downloading updates or users using several MS services like Bing, the amount of flight simmers will be minuscule.

I don't think the amount of traffic will force them into using a (cost) subscription model.


MSFS FTW !!
Maybe a little tweaking of ground effect needed. 🙂

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12 hours ago, mSparks said:

Cross border/undersea cable costs are very often metered by the byte.

In the same way that pretty much everyone in the world is charged for their electricity by the electron. Even though their bill reads kilowatt hour or multiples / fractions thereof, if you wanted to make it sound like a huge number (or a small number depending on whether you want to look at unit or cost) you could work out how much that is per electron, if the paper had enough space for all the decimal places.

I've dealt with a few hundred peering / bandwidth / private circuit contracts in my time starting from the days of the kilostream and E1/T1 and I can't ever remember seeing such a fractional charge. Most did, and probably still do charge based on bandwidth using the 95th percentile model or similar, but it is a while since I've been involved. I have lived in one of the worst places in the well populated areas of the world for internet within the last 10 years though and even they charged based on mbps without a cap. The poorer could always buy prepaid data chunks in the 100Mb type range if they were so inclined, but that didn't mean it was all that was available. Pretty much all of that country's bandwidth was provided by undersea cables, even between the several thousand islands that make up the single nation.

If I want to play flight sim in Antarctica it might be a different story, but internet to FS-HQ probably wouldn't be near the top of my worry list.

EDIT: Forgot to mention. I would imagine that the vast majority of Microsoft's bandwidth use is based on peering rather than purchasing. Heck they are so big they might even be charging their partners for access to their network. If you are a Tier 1 carrier and you don't peer with the likes of Microsoft.... you're definition of a Tier 1 carrier would need changing.

Edited by b737800

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8 hours ago, Scottoest said:

As this regards MSFS, they've already confirmed you'll be able to buy the sim standalone, which means it isn't inexorably linked to Game Pass.

As I stated a few pages back.

Important to draw a distinction between "buying the simulator" and "renting the online scenery".

There was a rumour around the time MSFS2020 was announced that XBOX Live Gold option was going to disappear:

https://www.engadget.com/2019/04/05/microsoft-xbox-game-pass-ultimate-rumor/

The truth is none of this is confirmed, its obvious what MSFT's intentions are, uncertain if the online scenery really is good enough to charge rent for.

Can they: Yes

Do they want to: Demon in the cellar yes

Will they: No one knows. (which, btw is recognised in the finance world as newspeak for "its far far too bad to tell you")

Gamepass is much more than a "completely unrelated supplementary subscription service, that is akin to Netflix", it is intended as an entire platform that merges XBOX console and XBOX PC into a single thing.

8 hours ago, Scottoest said:

It's not a subscription

Do you agree that XBOX console owners require a paid subscription to play multiplayer?

If so, I dont think you can really disagree that 

10 hours ago, Scottoest said:

you have not been able to access access any of microsofts online features (even multiplayer) without a subscription for several years.

Only caveat it. Which is fine if all you want to do is argue minutiae and ignore the bigger picture. 

2 hours ago, b737800 said:

you wanted to make it sound like a huge number (or a small number depending on whether you want to look at unit or cost) you could work out how much that is per electron, if the paper had enough space for all the decimal places.

Reminds me, by far the biggest cost of running a data center is the electricity they consume, that is huge numbers. Data/CMS is pretty cheap, but throw any decent amount of computation on a user by user basis in there and it goes stratospheric, with each of thousands of servers capable of needing up to ~100kWh a day (cooling them down being a big part of that).

Edited by mSparks

AutoATC Developer, Provocateur les x bot

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https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/crackdown-3/9nxr6469dm2p?activetab=pivot:overviewtab

On a point of keeping things accurate I'd like to point out that you can in fact buy Crackdown 3 on PC for $30 with access to the Azure augmented multiplayer.

Only the Xbox One version requires a paid sub for multiplayer access 

.

"Online multiplayer on Xbox requires Xbox Live Gold (subscription sold separately).
+ Offers in-app purchases"
 
I have a feeling when MSFS comes out with no sub required the rhetoric will change to "Just you wait! There's no way they can keep streaming to users free of charge forever. They'll start charging after the first year!"
Edited by Krakin
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Just like Microsoft , or laminar research eventually made us pay for real weather all these years. Oh wait, or you tube charges us for.... no sorry,  or VUDU charges for some movies and TV shows, dang, no, those are free too.  And as far as I know, the streamed US scenery in flyinside simulator doesn't have a subscription.  

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14 minutes ago, Casualcas said:

Just like Microsoft , or laminar research eventually made us pay for real weather all these years. Oh wait, or you tube charges us for.... no sorry,  or VUDU charges for some movies and TV shows, dang, no, those are free too.  And as far as I know, the streamed US scenery in flyinside simulator doesn't have a subscription.  

Youtube gets its money by advertisement. Anyhow, there are enough ways for MS to earn money with MSFS.


MSFS FTW !!
Maybe a little tweaking of ground effect needed. 🙂

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34 minutes ago, Casualcas said:

Just like Microsoft , or laminar research eventually made us pay for real weather all these years. Oh wait, or you tube charges us for.... no sorry,  or VUDU charges for some movies and TV shows, dang, no, those are free too.  And as far as I know, the streamed US scenery in flyinside simulator doesn't have a subscription.  

Just because others don't charge you directly does not mean that everybody else won't either. Many companies have fallen on hard times and/or gone under when they could no longer balance their cost against the freebee mentality of "the Net". It is always the same flame war when a previously free service suddenly starts to charge money...

The notion that something is "free of charge" or "simply out there for the taking" just because you can look at it on the Internet is wrong. Everything has a price tag somewhere, even if you are not immediately aware. When somebody provides a service on the Internet, this doesn't just happen. It needs software, infrastructure, servers, access points - all that costs money, every month, every year. Maintaining big services cost a lot of money - millions - billions. That money must come from somewhere, even if it is simply advertisements or cross-financed by the price of a one.time purchase. Or by selling the data that you provide about yourself. If enough people buy MSFS at full price, and that already covers all cost, Microsoft doesn't have to charge for streaming by the gigabyte.

Youtube generates $5 billion in revenue in three months, as just recently disclosed for the first time ever by its parent company  - Google. You are effectively paying for it by looking at the ads... Seems to be just about enough to keep them going 😀

Best regards

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LORBY-SI

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Let's put it this way : as long as Bing Map is free, there's no reason MSFS would charge for streaming data from this service, given it'll only represent a tiny fraction of Bing Map bandwidth overall. And since using Google Map is free, there's no reason MS would start charging for using Bing Map, otherwise nobody would use it.
For big companies each and every service doesn't have to generate an immediate, direct profit. For them it's about building an ecosystem through platforms that everyone eventually use, generating profits comes second when you have enough users, and it's never by suddenly forcing users to pay for the basic service, otherwise everyone leaves the platform.

Edited by divide

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14 minutes ago, divide said:

Let's put it this way : as long as Bing Map is free, there's no reason MSFS would charge for streaming data from this service,

I wish it was as simple as that.

For example, you can use Google Translate on the web as much as you like, for free. As soon as you try and integrate it into any product via the API it becomes chargeable, that charge being pretty hefty. In fact Google Translate is about twice the price of the equivalent Bing API, but is also about twice as accurate.

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