Do we Cancel Everything? You still Travelling??

[Dominique_K 10,138]

2 hours ago, G-RFRY said:

Just woken up they have been burning the EU flag in ITALY for a couple of weeks, they and Spain asked for funds to help from the EU.

 

 

2 hours ago, Biggles2010 said:

The EU, as an organisation, has been notable by it's almost total absence throughout the Corona problem, until a couple of days ago. Now they have just woken up, but only because they are concerned about member countries doing their own thing and closing borders to protect their citizens.

Anyone burning a flag anywhere being the flag of the EU, US, UK, France, Israel etc. is mentally deficient and manipulated. At best.

Do we want to discuss in details the implementation of the Lisbon Treaty ? Maybe not 😋. It is a complex and highly political issue.

Health is a shared competence between Member States (MS) and the Union. The Union has never been pro-active in this domain, I guess because MS were not so enthusiastic about it. The EU is out of the game mainly because MS want it so.

  I am a moderate Eurosceptic, rather hostile to the Lisbon Treaty political architecture but I wouldn't incriminate the Union ..

The grave failings we see in many MS are their governement's fault. I found  scandalous that the EC shipped "humanitarian" COVID-19 aid to Iran and not Italy but Italians suffer first and foremost  because of the ineptitude in Rome.  We suffer in France because of  idiotic (I am polite here)  decisions taken from 2014 to March last. The UE has nothing to do with them.

Some in Italy complain of the lack of UE funds to fight this awful epidemy. Italy has run for years huge deficits contrary to their commitments  (Maastricht Treaty). Like France. Countries like Germany or, out of the EU, Switzerland running excedents are indeed in a much better financial position. The EU's fault ?

 

 

Edited April 3, 2020 by domkle

[Biggles2010 343]

1 hour ago, G-RFRY said:

Just woken up they have been burning the EU flag in ITALY for a couple of weeks, they and Spain asked for funds to help from the EU.

I was meaning that the EU beaurocrats in Brussels, have just woken up to the fact that their European dream is under threat. Certainly not much evidence of them showing any leadership, or co-ordinating any relief efforts, other than printing money.  Difficult to say too much without getting political.

[Dominique_K 10,138]

7 minutes ago, Biggles2010 said:

I was meaning that the EU beaurocrats in Brussels, have just woken up to the fact that their European dream is under threat. Certainly not much evidence of them showing any leadership, or co-ordinating any relief efforts, other than printing money.  Difficult to say too much without getting political.

 Indeed, a serious blow. Interesting to see the spontaneous interstate cooperation between FR and GE outside of theEU framework. 

The EU cannot print money.

Edited April 3, 2020 by domkle

[Murmur 3,941]

1 hour ago, domkle said:

😋.

Some in Italy complain of the lack of UE funds to fight this awful epidemy. Italy has run for years huge deficits contrary to their commitments  (Maastricht Treaty). Like France. Countries like Germany or, out of the EU, Switzerland running excedents are indeed in a much better financial position. The EU's fault ?

Please no politics (not only you of course).

I could say e.g. that Netherlands drained resources for years being effectively a tax haven.

Or that Germany is against state aids only for others and not themselves. Or that it was the "sick man of Europe" until it entered the EUR (a devalued currency compared to DEM) helping its exports.

I can show you old newspapers where Chirac was pressing Italy to rejoin fixed exchange rate to "control" the Lira, because the devaluating Lira was damaging the industry and economy of France.

So please refrain from politics. It is clear that every country deems to have its own right reasons in acting a certain way, as is also clear that EU has been quite a failure under multiple aspects.

 

[birdguy 3,943]

I'm going to take a lot of flak for this but here goes.  And I am not suggesting that safeguards not be put into place.  However, the sky is not falling.

Consider the death rates from catching the virus by age:

80+ 20%

70 -79 13%

60-69 3.5%

50-59 1%

40-49 0.4%

30-39 0.4%

20-29 0% (China 0.2%)

10-19 0% (China 0.2%0

0-9 0%

So even in the rare likelihood you contract it the chances of surviving for most people are overwhelming.

Lets take a sky is falling scenario.  What if by the time it ends 100 million people die the virus.  Most will be in the 60-100 age group with underlying causes and be only 0.03% of the world population.  Breaking it down about 0.02% of the US population and 2% if the Italian population.

There is another outcome of this when it is all over.  Governments will change.  Those without universal health care will most likely see the  advantages for adopting it.  With the reduced tax revenues in the years to come from business that have failed or cut back and people who have lost their jobs priorities will have to be realigned.  Less monies on military projects and space programs and more on social programs and safety nets and healthcare..  Governments will have to become more people conscious.

In my country 2 trillion dollars has already been set aside for economic relief for the people.  60 million people applying for jobless benefits in a single week.  Financial aid for suffering businesses and corporations.  How will all of this be paid for?  As I mentioned before the tax revenue shortfall due loss of businesses and unemployed labor means the wealthy are going to have to be taxed accordingly.  Some will call this sharing the wealth.  Others will call it socialism.  And they will be right.  But consider this:  sodium and chlorine are deadly poisons. but together they form a necessary nutrient for health; common salt.  Likewise pure capitalism and pure socialism are  by themselves poor forms of government.  But together they can make for good government and a well functioning society.

That last paragraph might well cause the moderators to kill this reply as being too political.  But perhaps a few of you might read it before the do.

Noel

 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2020 by birdguy

[MartinRex007 390]

8 minutes ago, birdguy said:

In my country 2 trillion dollars has already been set aside for economic relief for the people.  60 million people applying for jobless benefits in a single week.

If this is in reference to the US, it was 6.6 million not 60 million. 

[Dominique_K 10,138]

34 minutes ago, Murmur said:

So please refrain from politics. 

 

You are right. I was too political. My belief is that a crisis of this magnitude is political though as it reveals strengths and weaknesses of our countries. To be very clear I do not single out of Italy.  You noted that I put France, my own country, in the  same bag.  My point is that the EU  is not at fault, for once. Or not much. MS are.

[G-RFRY 1,710]

42 minutes ago, Murmur said:

Please no politics (not only you of course).

I could say e.g. that Netherlands drained resources for years being effectively a tax haven.

Or that Germany is against state aids only for others and not themselves. Or that it was the "sick man of Europe" until it entered the EUR (a devalued currency compared to DEM) helping its exports.

I can show you old newspapers where Chirac was pressing Italy to rejoin fixed exchange rate to "control" the Lira, because the devaluating Lira was damaging the industry and economy of France.

So please refrain from politics. It is clear that every country deems to have its own right reasons in acting a certain way, as is also clear that EU has been quite a failure under multiple aspects.

 

I am not getting political there was help when Greece joined the EU and German banks gave them credit cards spend as much as you like and we know the rest.

[Biggles2010 343]

40 minutes ago, birdguy said:

So even in the rare likelihood you contract it the chances of surviving for most people are overwhelming.

Bear in mind that the death rates are where they are because most affected countries have taken action to control spread, even though a bit late in some cases. Without that action, the rate among more at risk groups would be substantially higher, and all groups would probably see a much higher death rate from repeated exposure to the virus, due to a larger infected sector of the population. The death rate among younger health care workers illustrates this.

[birdguy 3,943]

You are correct Martinrex.  I mistyped the number.

Noel

[birdguy 3,943]

Biggles 2010, the numbers will probably increase.  But as I said, even if 100 million are infected it is still a very small percentage of an entire population.

It's a thinning of the herd.  Herd animals like the wildebeest in Africa and the reindeer in North America are preyed upon by lions in one case and wolves in the other.  Older animals that can be sacrificed are placed at the edge of the herd and the younger animals at the center of the herd.  Younger animals that stray or are neglected when the herd comes together for protection are lost.  The older animals at the edge become the victims.  And only small percentage of them.

Pandemics are nature's way of thinning the human herd.  It's happened before.  But there are a lot more people on earth now than there were during the black plaque or the Spanish influenza.

I am in a very high risk group due to my age.  I am not worried .because I am taking precautions and the numbers are on my side.  I am not looking for the sky to fall.  Besides, I'm not immortal.  If I have to die of something why not coronavirus as opposed to cancer or heart disease or diabetes or a stroke or a stray bullet?

Noel

 

Edited April 3, 2020 by birdguy
Added another cause of death.

[Adrian123 1,015]

24 minutes ago, birdguy said:

t's a thinning of the herd.  Herd animals like the wildebeest in Africa and the reindeer in North America are preyed upon by lions in one case and wolves in the other.  Older animals that can be sacrificed are placed at the edge of the herd and the younger animals at the center of the herd.

But we are humans and this is the stupidest argument I have ever heard.. It is what distinguishes us from the "animal worlds". At least, some of us.

Edited April 3, 2020 by Adrian123

[Alan_A 1,650]

About the economic impact of pandemics - here's something worth reading: https://www.stlouisfed.org/~/media/files/pdfs/community-development/research-reports/pandemic_flu_report.pdf

It dates from 2007 and is... um... prescient.

[Alan_A 1,650]

2 hours ago, Murmur said:

So please refrain from politics. It is clear that every country deems to have its own right reasons in acting a certain way, as is also clear that EU has been quite a failure under multiple aspects.

Agree completely we should steer clear of politics.  But... speaking as someone that finds this thread valuable, and would like to see it keep going.. I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that, as mature, fact-oriented people, we can and should find a way to avoid politics but still discuss policy.

That is, without calling out leaders by name, or attacking or defending political parties, it ought to be possible to talk about actions that are being taken, and evaluate - backed by evidence and data - whether or not those actions are helpful and effective. 

It's more or less in the spirit of NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System, where the point is not to assign blame (we have electoral processes to do that, and we shouldn't talk about those) but to determine what's happening, and recommend changes if changes are necessary.

I'm not saying this is an easy thing to pull off, but it's worth a try.

I'll add - borrowing from John Oliver's commentary last week - that a crisis like this one isn't fundamentally political, because, whatever you otherwise think of a given leader or administration, we need them to succeed. The consequences of failure are way too high.  I'd like nothing better than for every administration in power to do the best job possible because, as a starting point, I'd like to live through this. My own political leanings should be pretty clear from past posts but that's not important now.  I'm happy to praise political opponents if, like my current governor, they're doing an exemplary job as far as the pandemic is concerned.

Mods may well disagree... and I'm sure in practice they'll have to step in from time to time.  But I hope that if we can stick to this - and talk about what's being done as opposed to who's doing it - we can minimize their workload and keep talking.

Worth a shot?

BTW, @Murmur - I'm quoting your post just to establish the context for mine, not to disagree with you - because I don't.

 

[charliearon 3,023]

1 hour ago, birdguy said:

  If I have to die of something why not coronavirus as opposed to cancer or heart disease or diabetes or a stroke or a stray bullet?

Noel

 

Given your location, Noel, more likely a flying saucer will crash into your house!