Do we Cancel Everything? You still Travelling??

[Bob Scott 7,720]

1 hour ago, Alan_A said:

I'm going to persist about this because it isn't an abstraction to me.

No, it may not be an abstraction to you, but I think it's a gross overgeneralization.  It does not negate the validity of the argument for stepped-up border protection to prevent additional seeding of disease clusters via illegal entries, especially from known hot zones in other countries in proximity to those borders.  Sorry, but Jewish angst isn't going to get traction...it's not a rational argument, it's an emotional one, and an attempt to transfer guilt from the acts of others in a different time, place, and situation. 

In a time of pandemic, the illegal invader poses *some* unnecessary and additional potential risk to communities--whatever degree of risk that presents, it would/should be zero were it not for breaking laws and in the process circumventing border controls.  Preventing that added risk is something nations can do right now with more attention to effective border control.

A guy gets pulled over for speeding and indignantly tells the cop "hey, everyone else was speeding too!"  And the cop asks the guy "do you fish?"  The guys says "Yeah, so what"  And the cop asks "the last time you went fishing, did you catch all of them?"

Arguing that illegal migration should be ignored as a public heath concern because addressing it won't completely stop all of the spread is like arguing that cops should stop arresting thieves because it won't stop all burglaries.  Every little bit helps...every bad actor off the streets removes *some* risk to the community.  All the emotional hyperbole of maggot-shaming notwithstanding, stopping people from coming in unscreened, with many fleeing from known uncontrolled hot zones, and then disappearing into the interior of your country has to help *some*.  No, it won't solve the entire problem, but I think this is a case where aggressively enforcing laws that are already on the books will save *some* lives.  Just as wearing masks may save *some* lives.  And socially distancing will save *some* lives.  Every bit helps *some*. 

[Alan_A 1,650]

39 minutes ago, w6kd said:

It does not negate the validity of the argument for stepped-up border protection to prevent additional seeding of disease clusters via illegal entries, especially from known hot zones in other countries in proximity to those borders.

I thought we'd negated the validity of that argument purely from a public health perspective - again, because there's no difference, from the perspective of viral transmission, between the contagious untested illegal immigrant and the contagious untested US citizen and churchgoer.

41 minutes ago, w6kd said:

Sorry, but Jewish angst isn't going to get traction...it's not a rational argument, it's an emotional one, and an attempt to transfer guilt from the acts of others in a different time, place, and situation. 

 

41 minutes ago, w6kd said:

All the emotional hyperbole of maggot-shaming notwithstanding,

You know, Bob, if I met someone from a different background, and that person found something I said objectionable, I think I'd try to find out more about why the person felt that way - especially if I wasn't overly familiar with that person's background and culture.

If you'd like to find out more, I'd be happy to engage in that converation.

Are you willing to do that?

[dave2013 1,130]

I've read the comments about illegal immigration and how it relates to Covid-19 and frankly I'm just baffled.

I don't see how anyone can reasonably argue that illegal immigration does not make the problem worse and more difficult to control.

If there is an outbreak in another country, then the govt. can ban travelers from that country thereby reducing the chance that an infected person from that country can enter your country and infect others.  By its very nature, illegal immigration means that you cannot prevent possibly infected individuals from a country with an outbreak from entering your country.  It completely negates the travel control that is absolutely necessary to prevent the spread of the infection to other countries.

Aside from that, it defeats the idea of contact tracing because illegal immigrants don't have valid addresses and in many cases valid IDs, so you don't know who they are and you can't track them.

I know a lot about immigration because 1)I lived in another country for years and had to go through their difficult immigration process, and 2)my wife is from another country and she had to go through the U.S. immigration process which is also not easy.

Look, I wish that we lived in a Star Trek world where the planet is united, we're all global citizens, everyone on the planet has a good standard of living and equal rights, and we can all live wherever we want, but right now we don't.  We'll get there one day, but right now we have to deal with reality.

Dave

[Alan_A 1,650]

1 minute ago, dave2013 said:

but right now we have to deal with reality.

But as we've been discussing, the reality is - based on the numbers - that illegal immigration is an infinitesimal risk compared to community transmission.

Immigration is a major issue and I agree it needs to be addressed - I say that even though I disagree with some of the recent approaches.  But it's a separate issue, and not where the public health center of gravity is right now.

[Luke 782]

53 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

If there is an outbreak in another country, then the govt. can ban travelers from that country thereby reducing the chance that an infected person from that country can enter your country and infect others.

As I said before, the virus doesn't care about your immigration status or where you came from. If I, a US citizen, am returning from that country a travel ban won't affect me (worst case, I transit through a third country) but I will be just as likely to carry and spread the virus. Suggesting that travel bans which only affect nationals of a country will do anything to stop the spread of a pathogen makes no sense to anyone who understands infectious disease. It gets even more unreasonable when you think that numerous individuals in our modern age possess multiple citizenships - I have two, my wife has three, and our children may be eligible for up to five.

53 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

Aside from that, it defeats the idea of contact tracing because illegal immigrants don't have valid addresses and in many cases valid IDs, so you don't know who they are and you can't track them.

And that's why most local authorities go out of the way to not cooperate with immigration officials, because they understand that by making them fearful, they lose cooperation and their jobs become much harder. It's true for cops, and doubly true for public health. Demonizing illegals or foreigners by implying they are somewhat more a disease vector that cousin Cletus and his 20,000 redneck buddies on Lake of the Ozarks is a disaster from a public health perspective, and why it makes so much sense to regularize, normalize and legalize these people.

53 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

I know a lot about immigration because 1)I lived in another country for years and had to go through their difficult immigration process, and 2)my wife is from another country and she had to go through the U.S. immigration process which is also not easy.

With respect, if your entire contact with immigration systems (either there or here) was through your wife, you know very little of the process. Can you explain to me how long your wife would need to wait if she qualified under her own merits in an EB category, how her category and country of chargeability (which set those wait times) are determined, and what forms of relief she would need based any immigration violations (the kind that your wife got automatic amnesty from?) If you can't (or you don't even know what many of those terms are) then please don't say you know a lot about immigration when there are other people that have gone through the process for years, seen others suffer and spent over a decade volunteering to help others in the same boat go through some very painful and costly situations. At best it's Dunning-Kruger and at worst it's offensive - little different than saying you know a lot about aviation because you flew in a 747 a few times.

53 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

Look, I wish that we lived in a Star Trek world where the planet is united, we're all global citizens, everyone on the planet has a good standard of living and equal rights, and we can all live wherever we want, but right now we don't.  We'll get there one day, but right now we have to deal with reality.

The first step is by being less ugly, especially when it is in our own interest. Somehow I get the feeling I could have heard that exact same phrase in our part of the world in 1963.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Luke

[dave2013 1,130]

1 hour ago, Luke said:

As I said before, the virus doesn't care about your immigration status or where you came from. If I, a US citizen, am returning from that country a travel ban won't affect me (worst case, I transit through a third country) but I will be just as likely to carry and spread the virus. Suggesting that travel bans which only affect nationals of a country will do anything to stop the spread of a pathogen makes no sense to anyone who understands infectious disease. It gets even more unreasonable when you think that numerous individuals in our modern age possess multiple citizenships - I have two, my wife has three, and our children may be eligible for up to five.

And that's why most local authorities go out of the way to not cooperate with immigration officials, because they understand that by making them fearful, they lose cooperation and their jobs become much harder. It's true for cops, and doubly true for public health. Demonizing illegals or foreigners by implying they are somewhat more a disease vector that cousin Cletus and his 20,000 redneck buddies on Lake of the Ozarks is a disaster from a public health perspective, and why it makes so much sense to regularize, normalize and legalize these people.

With respect, if your entire contact with immigration systems (either there or here) was through your wife, you know very little of the process. Can you explain to me how long your wife would need to wait if she qualified under her own merits in an EB category, how her category and country of chargeability (which set those wait times) are determined, and what forms of relief she would need based any immigration violations (the kind that your wife got automatic amnesty from?) If you can't (or you don't even know what many of those terms are) then please don't say you know a lot about immigration when there are other people that have gone through the process for years, seen others suffer and spent over a decade volunteering to help others in the same boat go through some very painful and costly situations. At best it's Dunning-Kruger and at worst it's offensive - little different than saying you know a lot about aviation because you flew in a 747 a few times.

The first step is by being less ugly, especially when it is in our own interest. Somehow I get the feeling I could have heard that exact same phrase in our part of the world in 1963.

Here's a summary of what my wife had to do to immigrate *legally* to the United States:

1. Apply for legal residency based on marriage - fill out form, pay $300 or so fee, mail to INS.

2. Wait 9 months for an appointment at the U.S. embassy.  That's right, 9 months.

3. Gather required documentation - birth certificate translated into English, criminal record document translated into English, notarized copy of passport.

4. Two-day appointment at the embassy - more paperwork, fingerprinting, interview, and medical exam.  A lot of waiting around.

5. Upon arrival in the U.S. at the port of entry had to go to the immigration waiting area and submit document package received from the embassy.  Here she was told to visit the nearest immigration office to her residence of record in the U.S. within 60 days.

6. Traveled to the nearest immigration office, a 3 hour drive.  Between standing in line outside and waiting inside this took several hours.  I had to sign an affidavit of support form which stated that I would support her and that she would not become a public burden, meaning she would not use any public welfare benefits.  Received a *temporary* green card, i.e. legal residency.

7. Two years later, we had to fill out another form, pay another fee, and return to the same immigration office and attest that we were still married.  She finally received the permanent green card.

8. Ten years later, she had to fill out a green card renewal form and mail that in, wait for the approval and instructions which came in the mail, go to the nearest immigration office, only an hour away this time, get fingerprinted and photographed again, in order to renew her green card.

9. She applied for citizenship the next year.  Filled out the form, paid the fee, and waited.

10. She had to study U.S. history, civics, and had to know English.

11. After several months, had to travel to the immigration office again for document verification and another interview and test.  She passed the test, which requires that you can speak and understand English.

12. A few months later, she had to attend the citizenship ceremony, a really great experience.  I remember how proud I was of her and of all the other *legal* immigrants who went through all that process over years in order to become American citizens.

She had to study everything in English, which she had to learn.

So, Luke, you are the one who doesn't know what he's talking about. 

 

Dave

 

 

 

[Luke 782]

1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

 Wait 9 months for an appointment at the U.S. embassy.  That's right, 9 months.

You'll forgive me, but I had to wait 14 months for my petition to get approved. Then another 14 months for the final step to get reviewed, another three months to review my response, and then another two years to get the interview scheduled. So don't be surprised when I don't have much sympathy for your pearl clutching.

As gently as I can - your wife's experience is not representative to what most people go through. Sitting around and having to file some paperwork and wait in line for a few hours is not unusual - except that most people who do it wait for years at a time, if they're even eligible. I have a fantastic data scientist working for me who's been waiting for eleven years now and with respects to your wife will be at least as much of a benefit to America, if not more. There are millions of DREAMers who can never apply without a change in law - through no fault of their own.

To suggest that I don't know what I'm talking about speaks more to your privilege and good fortune than my ignorance. I was very fortunate that I came from a less popular country at the right time and "only" waited seven years from entrance to Green Card and only one need to retroactively legalize my status. But please, tell me more about the indignity of waiting around for nine months and having to file some forms. There's a small violin here somewhere....

Please, acknowledge your good fortune and your personal benefit from an unequal system, rather than attacking those who point out that your perspective is limited and inaccurate.

[birdguy 3,943]

The gingham dog and the calico cat
Side by side on the table sat;
'T was half-past twelve, and (what do you think!)
Nor one nor t' other had slept a wink!
The old Dutch clock and the Chinese plate
Appeared to know as sure as fate
There was going to be a terrible spat.
(I wasn't there; I simply state
What was told to me by the Chinese plate!)

The gingham dog went "Bow-wow-wow!"
And the calico cat replied "Mee-ow!"
The air was littered, an hour or so,
With bits of gingham and calico,
While the old Dutch clock in the chimney-place
Up with its hands before its face,
For it always dreaded a family row!
(Now mind: I'm only telling you
What the old Dutch clock declares is true!)

The Chinese plate looked very blue,
And wailed, "Oh, dear! what shall we do!"
But the gingham dog and the calico cat
Wallowed this way and tumbled that,
Employing every tooth and claw
In the awfullest way you ever saw-
And, oh! how the gingham and calico flew!
(Don't fancy I exaggerate-
I got my news from the Chinese plate!)

Next morning, where the two had sat
They found no trace of dog or cat;
And some folks think unto this day
That burglars stole that pair away!
But the truth about the cat and pup
Is this: they ate each other up!
Now what do you really think of that!
(The old Dutch clock it told me so,
And that is how I came to know.)

Noel

[dave2013 1,130]

1 hour ago, Luke said:

You'll forgive me, but I had to wait 14 months for my petition to get approved.

Well, if you had just said from the beginning that you are a legal immigrant then we would all know that you do indeed know what you're talking about.

Spouses of citizens have immigration priority in most countries, including the one that I had to get legal residence in.  It was easier for me because my wife was a citizen, just like it was easier for her because I'm a citizen.  If you're bitter about that, which it seems you are, then lobby your elected representatives to reform immigration law.  By the way, neither you nor anyone else has an automatic right to immigrate to another country.  It isn't just the U.S. that has strict immigration laws.

You of all people should understand then why it's not fair to simply allow anyone to enter your country illegally and then be granted legal status without having to go through the immigration process like everyone else does, let alone allow them to become citizens.

As far as the Dreamers go I agree that they should be granted legal status and eventually citizenship because they came here as minors through no fault of their own.  That's a different issue then the people who knowingly enter a country illegally as adults.

Lastly, you were the one who attacked me first with ridiculous claims that I don;t know what I'm talking about where immigration is concerned, that my wife was granted amnesty for immigration violations, and that somehow we unjustly took advantage of what you believe to be an unfair system..  You've got a lot of nerve based on that and other comments you've made here.  So get off your high horse and realize that you're not the smartest person in the room and you're not always right.

Dave

Edited May 27, 2020 by n4gix
Trimmed excessive quoting!

[n4gix 4,947]

Okay, Dave and Luke, climb down of the high donkeys and knock off the tit-for-tat bovine excrement...

[HiFlyer 9,358]

Something that I was reminded of due to a conversation I was having at another venue:

There is a magazine I've been reading since I was about 12 or so (spent my allowance money on it) that has English language excerpts of news stories and articles from countries all around the world. It's really good if you want to see things not just from one particular viewpoint, but what a subject looks like from multiple angles and countries.

In the age of covid, getting a close up of other nations internals and reactions not just from a US-centric perspective makes this resource just as valuable now as it was then.

Maybe worth a look, if anyone is curious: https://www.worldpress.org/

 

[HiFlyer 9,358]

Meanwhile: Not a surprise. https://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-cases-covid-19-increasing-thousands-reopening/story?id=70720497

[birdguy 3,943]

So, what do you do while you're sequestered?

I do a little bit of writing.  Quite a bit of reading.  I'm into Edna Ferber's short stories now.

We watch old movies on television.  Spencer Tracy, Katherine Hepburn, Clark Gable, if your of my generation you know the rest.  And Westerns with John Wayne,  Audie Murphy, et all.

I play the card games on my computer while I'm eating breakfast.  Free Cell, Hearts, Solitaire, Spider Solitaire and Mine Sweeper.  Did you know that every game is winnable in Free Cell.  I just reset my 1000 games without a loss and started over.  I'm now at 122 games without a loss.  I read once where every game was winnable.  Sometimes you get a real stickler and have to back track or even come back to it the next day.  But eventually you win.

Of course there's the thing we all have in common.  Simming! 

FS9 with California Classic retro 60s scenery.  I fly my MAAM DC-3 on every continent.

FSX with Orbx North America.  It's my airplane collection.  I have about 100 now and they still keep coming.  FSX accepts a excrement load of airplanes.

P3Dv4 with all of the Orbx world.  I just fly my Quest Kodiak somewhere that seems interesting today.

Then I come here and read the lastest on this virus thing even though I don't understand most of the links.  I'm not well versed in epidemiology.

The veering off to immigration was a hoot!  I remember when my mother became a citizen.  She decorated the house with American flags and red, white and blue crepe paper and baked a red, white and blue cake.  She was so proud.  She was a Belgian national...a World War One refugee.

Even though we are under a mandate to wear masks only about half the people I see in the supermarket do.  Out West here we are a pretty ornery bunch.

Noel

Edited May 27, 2020 by birdguy

[HighBypass 2,339]

13 hours ago, Groovy_Kincaid said:

All I can say is WOW! How can people who love a hobby, degenerate in xenophobia. 

I'm OK with people being xenophobic, I guess I'm a bit of an isolationist; we may be only one planet, but we can never be one world. We can all try and get along with each other whilst living in different countries and accepting that different peoples have different cultures, so of which may be more alien to us than others. If I desire to live in your country then I have to live by your rules and customs, assuming I get accepted as a resident or citizen of your country. If that means I cannot have a beer when I want, even in my own home, then so be it. Even AVSIM has it's own rules and guidelines which other forums differ from, good or bad.

No xenophobia's not too bad, but if I get genocidal, then you should worry! Until then, "Be Excellent to each other!" 😎

What do I do during this world chaos?

12 minutes ago, birdguy said:

FSX accepts a excrement load of airplanes...

.. and some airplanes really are a load of excrement! 😄

As well as simming, I play video games with my friends. I take my RC rock crawlers and trail truck for walks. Both my wife and I, and my son like boardgames which have come a long way from just Monopoly. (I think I might like the Godzilla Monopoly though... 😵 

After payday, I should hopefully be off to nuke the USA...  WHAT!! WHAT!! ??

Before you get your panties in a wad or knickers in a twist, let me refer you to a relatively new solitaire boardgame:

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/286114/amerika-bomber-evil-queen-skies

Yes folks it's Alternate History . The designer wanted to pay homage to the older solitaire game B-17 Queen of the Skies, but reverse it with a what-if scenario?? Wargames and indeed sims are good for what-ifs. Look at all the fictional planes and fictional liveries etc.

Now Amerika Bomber does have a pinkie toe hold in reality, at least in what was on the drawing boards. Some unmentionable guy with the initials AH (not Aeroplane Heaven!!) wanted to carry out such attacks, and one aircraft type, the Me264 had prototypes which did fly (the 364 was the 6-engined version).

My autistic son asked if we could all play? I said no, it is one player only, to which he replied OK maybe i can throw the dice..😉

You know what? I thought, that is a great idea - he can help me - not only can he throw the dice he can use the look up charts to see if we get chewed up by some F-80s or Bearcats taking out our crew and systems.. It means he can brush up on his reading too... I will of course remind him that the events in the game never happened, even if we manage to have our crew survive enough missions to nuke NY, Chicago and Boston..... 

I wonder if Noel wants the cheap tinfoil or the expensive tinfoil for the hats. I need to make two ... 😎

[birdguy 3,943]

15 minutes ago, HighBypass said:

If I desire to live in your country then I have to live by your rules and customs, assuming I get accepted as a resident or citizen of your country

I would add that even if you are going to be a rather long term resident in that country you should abide by their customs and do your best not to offend them

I lived in Japan for a total of eight years.  1.5 years as a Marine and later for 6.5 years.

I found that if you learn a bit of the language and eat their food it goes a long way towards making new friends.  I learned quite a bit of Japanese when I was over there and could even read and write a bit of it.  I was fluent enough to become supervisor of Japanese laborers in the bomb dump.  I always spoke Japanese to them and I was invited to some of their homes where I even learned more of the language.   I ate their food even if I didn't like some of it and pretended it was good.

The same in Thailand.  There was a family I became friends with and sometimes had a meal with them.  It was spicy HOT.  I had to drink a lot of water with it.

Noel