Your thoughts on VRAM for MSFS

[PaulFWatts 100]

I know there are no specs out yet, and Alpha testers are under an NDA, but I'm interested in your thoughts on how much VRAM you will be looking for with your next graphics card.

Having just read all the posts on the flaming dumpster fire that is the "VRAM issue" in P3Dv5, even if MSFS has a better memory management solution (i.e. doesn't just crash like P3D when it runs out of VRAM) when it moves to DX12, I'm thinking a large amount of VRAM is going to be the preferred option if you want stunning visuals.

Based on the various rumours of cards coming out this year there will be consumer cards with 16Gb however no doubt they are going to be expensive.

So there are basically 2 questions here:

1. Do you think the new MSFS will require a large amount of VRAM when it moves to DX12 to achieve the best visual experience?

2. Do you see any hope for reasonably priced cards with large amounts of VRAM in 2020 or 2021

 

[Dominique_K 10,138]

What I think is of minor importance 😄 !

What I understand from rare glimpses coming from the alpha crowd is that the vram amount doesn’t appear to be an issue. I suppose 8 GB and over is a minimum though. The main problem seems to be around the couple weak internet connexion/heavy density scenery.

What I know from experience is that I have never met a hardware which was too strong ( CPU-wise, GPU-wise, memory-wise) for any sim I had.I expect FS20 to respect the tradition.

About the price, I don’t see anything below 1200 euros in the upper tier but we have heard from testers having a nice experience with 1070/1080 gen.

 

 

[ca_metal 2,019]

1 hour ago, PaulFWatts said:

I know there are no specs out yet, and Alpha testers are under an NDA, but I'm interested in your thoughts on how much VRAM you will be looking for with your next graphics card.

Having just read all the posts on the flaming dumpster fire that is the "VRAM issue" in P3Dv5, even if MSFS has a better memory management solution (i.e. doesn't just crash like P3D when it runs out of VRAM) when it moves to DX12, I'm thinking a large amount of VRAM is going to be the preferred option if you want stunning visuals.

Based on the various rumours of cards coming out this year there will be consumer cards with 16Gb however no doubt they are going to be expensive.

So there are basically 2 questions here:

1. Do you think the new MSFS will require a large amount of VRAM when it moves to DX12 to achieve the best visual experience?

2. Do you see any hope for reasonably priced cards with large amounts of VRAM in 2020 or 2021

 

Well, we had some leaked screenshots being posted all around. Flying over London, in a really dense scenery, the system was using 9GB of Vram.

About the DX12 and CTDs, that's just something LM did wrong. DX12 is a low level API (differently from DX11), and it gives way more access to the hardware. But if you don't do things right, it will crash. 

I'm sure WHEN Asobo decides to move to DX12, they will do it right. 

About new GPUs with more Vram, I think we will have an idea before the end of the year. By that time Nvidia should have announced their 3000 series.

[Hyperfocal 186]

My prediction is that 8GB will be able to run the program with graphical limitations and 11GB will be required if you want those sliders toward the right. I do not think hardware requirements will increase when the platform is updated to DX12 due to the additional efficiencies in the upgraded version. In fact, performance will likely improve since most of the DX12-exclusive capabilities involve increased access to the video card.

I am due for a new hardware build but am not even looking at anything until optimization is complete and specifications are released. CPU and graphics card architecture/capability is going to be significantly different by the time MSFS is generally available.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Hyperfocal
Added caveat

[ChaoticBeauty 6,692]

1 hour ago, PaulFWatts said:

2. Do you see any hope for reasonably priced cards with large amounts of VRAM in 2020 or 2021

No. GDDR6 is expensive and in very high demand, especially now that GDDR5 is being phased out and each unit of the new consoles will boast 16GB GDDR6 shared RAM. Same goes for DRAM and NAND flash, the oversupply is over and the demand is very high, as a result prices have been steadily increasing the past three months and will probably continue to do so throughout 2020 and 2021. In 2022 we could finally see graphics cards with double the amount of VRAM (GPUs with a 256-bit bus being equipped with 16GB VRAM for example).

23 minutes ago, ca_metal said:

About the DX12 and CTDs, that's just something LM did wrong. DX12 is a low level API (differently from DX11), and it gives way more access to the hardware. But if you don't do things right, it will crash. 

I'm sure WHEN Asobo decides to move to DX12, they will do it right.

https://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6312&t=136873&p=212507#p212543

According to that post from Beau Hollis, this problem is inherent to DirectX 12. But... I haven't seen any other game exhibit this issue, and Beau did make some ridiculous statements in the v2 era so I'm not sure what to believe. If anyone knows more about the matter, some input would be appreciated.

Since Microsoft is behind Asobo, it is almost certain that they will be working on a good implementation. Most games nowadays have terrible DirectX 12 implementations, causing stutters and other performance issues on some specific GPU architectures.

[arsenal82 120]

1 hour ago, ca_metal said:

Well, we had some leaked screenshots being posted all around. Flying over London, in a really dense scenery, the system was using 9GB of Vram.

About the DX12 and CTDs, that's just something LM did wrong. DX12 is a low level API (differently from DX11), and it gives way more access to the hardware. But if you don't do things right, it will crash. 

I'm sure WHEN Asobo decides to move to DX12, they will do it right. 

About new GPUs with more Vram, I think we will have an idea before the end of the year. By that time Nvidia should have announced their 3000 series.

not sure where you got that from but LM has explained what the issue is with DX12 according to them

but hey hooo pretty sure LM devs know more than us 

what asobo and ms will do rest to be seen at this point I would not bet on anything yet as the proof will be in the pudding

Edited April 16, 2020 by arsenal82

[mikealpha 266]

all reviews I read so far about the NVidia Titan (with 24GB VRAM) came to the same conclusion : No game needs that much VRAM, not even close. So there probably won't be much motivation for NVidia to increase the VRAM in future graphic cards. 

[Dominique_K 10,138]

4 minutes ago, mikealpha said:

all reviews I read so far about the NVidia Titan (with 24GB VRAM) came to the same conclusion : No game needs that much VRAM, not even close. So there probably won't be much motivation for NVidia to increase the VRAM in future graphic cards. 

Yes but flashing your Titan at Avsim, that's cool. You look like a pretty important person.  No, I don't think of anybody in particular 🤣.

[Snowfalcon 18]

After what is happening with P3Dv5 I hope to god somebody is alpha testing on a all AMD system...

 

[PaulFWatts 100]

3 hours ago, ca_metal said:

Well, we had some leaked screenshots being posted all around. Flying over London, in a really dense scenery, the system was using 9GB of Vram.

About the DX12 and CTDs, that's just something LM did wrong. DX12 is a low level API (differently from DX11), and it gives way more access to the hardware. But if you don't do things right, it will crash. 

I'm sure WHEN Asobo decides to move to DX12, they will do it right. 

About new GPUs with more Vram, I think we will have an idea before the end of the year. By that time Nvidia should have announced their 3000 series.

That’s interesting re the 9GB. Thanks!

I understand how the API’s work and the fact that with greater power comes greater responsibility 🙂 

I don’t know much about Asobo yet but coming up to speed fast. 

[PaulFWatts 100]

3 hours ago, Hyperfocal said:

 

I am due for a new hardware build but am not even looking at anything until optimization is complete and specifications are released. CPU and graphics card architecture/capability is going to be significantly different by the time MSFS is generally available.

I will also be due for a hardware upgrade by the time MSFS is released.

Like you will be watching carefully and doing my research once we know a lot more about how to get maximum performance from MSFS. Doing the research is always the fun part, but spending the money isn’t 🙂

 

[PaulFWatts 100]

3 hours ago, ChaoticBeauty said:

No. GDDR6 is expensive and in very high demand, especially now that GDDR5 is being phased out and each unit of the new consoles will boast 16GB GDDR6 shared RAM. Same goes for DRAM and NAND flash, the oversupply is over and the demand is very high, as a result prices have been steadily increasing the past three months and will probably continue to do so throughout 2020 and 2021. In 2022 we could finally see graphics cards with double the amount of VRAM (GPUs with a 256-bit bus being equipped with 16GB VRAM for example).

....

Thanks for your insights!

I can remember the bad old days when DRAM when through similar supply chain constraints (for different reasons) and doubled or tripled in price and was hard to get.

I’m also interested in the new console releases (presumably this year) and no doubt you right on how their release will affect the supply chain.

[PaulFWatts 100]

23 minutes ago, Snowfalcon said:

After what is happening with P3Dv5 I hope to god somebody is alpha testing on a all AMD system...

 

Interesting you are on an all AMD system. I’m hoping AMD continues to innovate to keep Intel and Nvidia prices down 🙂 .

When I do my research for my next PC upgrade (when MSFS is in the field and the real world specs are known) I will be looking at an AMD solution with great interest.

[ChaoticBeauty 6,692]

5 minutes ago, PaulFWatts said:

Thanks for your insights!

I can remember the bad old days when DRAM when through similar supply chain constraints (for different reasons) and doubled or tripled in price and was hard to get.

I’m also interested in the new console releases (presumably this year) and no doubt you right on how their release will affect the supply chain.

Unfortunately this is very true and I will not be surprised if the prices are doubled again within the next year. Once a power outage or another incident takes place at a DRAM or NAND flash factory and supply gets thin, the three leading manufacturers initiate a price fixing scheme until the eventual oversupply. The latest power outage at Samsung took place last January, and now we have RAM kits and SSDs from all manufacturers steadily rising in price.

As semiconductors and DRAM/NAND flash manufacturers in China are ramping up production, it means that this could be the last time this happens at least.

[Amon1973 1,421]

3 hours ago, ChaoticBeauty said:

No. GDDR6 is expensive and in very high demand, especially now that GDDR5 is being phased out and each unit of the new consoles will boast 16GB GDDR6 shared RAM. Same goes for DRAM and NAND flash, the oversupply is over and the demand is very high, as a result prices have been steadily increasing the past three months and will probably continue to do so throughout 2020 and 2021. In 2022 we could finally see graphics cards with double the amount of VRAM (GPUs with a 256-bit bus being equipped with 16GB VRAM for example).

https://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6312&t=136873&p=212507#p212543

According to that post from Beau Hollis, this problem is inherent to DirectX 12. But... I haven't seen any other game exhibit this issue, and Beau did make some ridiculous statements in the v2 era so I'm not sure what to believe. If anyone knows more about the matter, some input would be appreciated.

Since Microsoft is behind Asobo, it is almost certain that they will be working on a good implementation. Most games nowadays have terrible DirectX 12 implementations, causing stutters and other performance issues on some specific GPU architectures.

I wonder if issues with memory management could be one of the reasons why Asobo/MS initially chose to use DirectX 11?