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netshadoe

Heads up on new AI separation utilities for P3Dv4

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thanks Roland so it some cases we may have to increase the aircraft separation distance by 1 or 2 additional miles in order to avoid go arounds (depends on airport layout of course)

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Posted (edited)

I realize these tools have been around for a while but it's only now that I decided to give them both a try.
To begin with, thanks a lot for developing them and sharing free of any charge!

Now a problem I noticed yesterday. I was taxing my FSL A321 for RWY25C departure at EDDF, following a few AI aircraft.
The problem is they were disappearing in fractions of a second, one by one. I mean first the one I followed disappeared, then another one which I followed afterwards, etc. Reaching the runway entry, I was left alone.
I am not saying this is due to the tool, but I haven't experienced multiple vanishing before (single cases did happen). Is this a question of settings maybe?

Edited by Rafal

Rafal Haczek

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On 5/7/2020 at 9:15 PM, Clipper Ocean Spray said:

Re: 1, that's in the latest version (110) that I linked to in the thread.  Re: 2, to do that right I would need to know the taxi nodes and links.  My prior AIController read all that data from the bgl(s), but it was a lot more complicated program and I wasn't sure it was worth all the extra fuss.  Maybe there is a way I can do it using a bare bones approach.  What would you think if the AI pushed back to its normal point, then sort of did a tear drop 180 so that the AI ended up in approx. the same location, but pointed out to the apron?

Thanks for considering this, Roland. Might be worth to try it but only if your time allows it. My understanding was that the software does actually consider the taxi nodes. So, I assumed that you could extend the push to the first taxi node and then the aircraft would only need to do a 90 degree turn. But now it makes a lot more sense to me and you are absolutely right about the extra fuss. 


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Christoph

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On 5/10/2020 at 5:03 AM, Rafal said:

Now a problem I noticed yesterday. I was taxing my FSL A321 for RWY25C departure at EDDF, following a few AI aircraft.
The problem is they were disappearing in fractions of a second, one by one. I mean first the one I followed disappeared, then another one which I followed afterwards, etc. Reaching the runway entry, I was left alone.
I am not saying this is due to the tool, but I haven't experienced multiple vanishing before (single cases did happen). Is this a question of settings maybe?

This. I was at KATL the other day and saw some planes vanish for no apparent reason. One Delta MD80 pushed back, did its turn, then suddenly disappeared? All in all, I've rarely seen KATL this question as yesterday and I wonder if AIGround was removing these planes, and if so, why?


Benjamin van Soldt

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19 minutes ago, Benjamin J said:

This. I was at KATL the other day and saw some planes vanish for no apparent reason. One Delta MD80 pushed back, did its turn, then suddenly disappeared? All in all, I've rarely seen KATL this question as yesterday and I wonder if AIGround was removing these planes, and if so, why?

Is there a possibility you could add a DEBUG option in the config file, where if turned on, it will write out data to a log file about any changes its made to the AI, when and what rule it used to do so.

That would then allow us to track down if it was these utils that were removing the AI.  It could also allow more detailed reviews to see if we have the params/distances right for good AI flow, without having to view/witness every interaction.

Regards
David

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On 5/10/2020 at 1:48 AM, vbazillio said:

Totally different thing I'm not sure at all if it was related but it happened to me yesterday evening when approaching San Francisco. I was lucky to be cleared, in a great approach sequence (thanks to your tool), number 2 behind Air France A380.

I know there's no real solution for these AI's to land with a decent length of rolling. And that changing AI parameters for landing rolling distance will affect accordingly the way they taxi. But this one was surprisingly short. It killed the immersive experience. By any chance, is this could be related to AIFLOW ?

Hmm..AIGround doesn't affect rollout length.  If the AI slowed down quickly and evacuated the runway, that is the default AI program.  Was AIANTIRUNWAYINCURSION=0 in the .ini?  I'll keep an eye out though for the behavior...an indication that AIGround is causing the issue would be the AI immediately stopping on the runway and getting stuck there, which is something AIGround should NOT be doing.

I thought about addressing landing rollout length with AIFlow, but I probably need to read the runway nodes and links, which means reading airport bgls.  My prior AIController did that, but it had a replacement AI movement system that included the ability to tune AI landing rollout distances.  Thus, it was much more complicated in addition to not being compatible with the default P3D AI engine especially re: ATC communications.

 

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On 5/10/2020 at 4:38 AM, pmemery said:

thanks Roland so it some cases we may have to increase the aircraft separation distance by 1 or 2 additional miles in order to avoid go arounds (depends on airport layout of course)

Yes, the default values are more geared to creating AI lined up like a string of lights at busy airports and medium/heavy traffic densities, but at the expense of an occasional go-around.

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On 5/10/2020 at 5:03 AM, Rafal said:

The problem is they were disappearing in fractions of a second, one by one. I mean first the one I followed disappeared, then another one which I followed afterwards, etc

AIGround doesn't delete AI.  Have you by chance used any other utility that changed the timeout settings (e.g., standing still) for the AI?  Also, can you give me the simconnect version you are running (in a scenario, chose Help/About)?  Thanks, Roland.

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3 hours ago, Benjamin J said:

This. I was at KATL the other day and saw some planes vanish for no apparent reason. One Delta MD80 pushed back, did its turn, then suddenly disappeared? All in all, I've rarely seen KATL this question as yesterday and I wonder if AIGround was removing these planes, and if so, why?

Please see my prior response to Rafal.  This also seems like something is timing out the AI and deleting them.  AIGround doesn't delete AI, but it does hold the AI longer after pushback, which might be counting against a timeout value.  Have you used any utility that changed AI timeout values?

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Posted (edited)
On 5/10/2020 at 4:03 AM, Rafal said:

I realize these tools have been around for a while but it's only now that I decided to give them both a try.
To begin with, thanks a lot for developing them and sharing free of any charge!

Now a problem I noticed yesterday. I was taxing my FSL A321 for RWY25C departure at EDDF, following a few AI aircraft.
The problem is they were disappearing in fractions of a second, one by one. I mean first the one I followed disappeared, then another one which I followed afterwards, etc. Reaching the runway entry, I was left alone.
I am not saying this is due to the tool, but I haven't experienced multiple vanishing before (single cases did happen). Is this a question of settings maybe?

My experience was exactly opposite, I started a scenario and a cessna was taxiing to runway and was approaching my parked position, it stopped (AIGround) I thought I'll see how far I can taxi away from the Cessna and he continues on to runway, well I taxied all the way across the airport and he never moved. So I was going to go back to him, go around him and take off. Before I got back to the Cessna, a Learjet pulled up behind the Cessna an stopped. So I went around both of them, took off, flew 8 miles away to KOKC, came back to KPWA and both of them were still parked in the taxiway at same position. (AIGround?) 

I always thought that if AI was coming into an airport that didn't have a free parking spot, then the sim deleted the AI.

Edited by jimcarrel

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44 minutes ago, jimcarrel said:

My experience was exactly opposite, I started a scenario and a cessna was taxiing to runway and was approaching my parked position, it stopped (AIGround) I thought I'll see how far I can taxi away from the Cessna and he continues on to runway, well I taxied all the way across the airport and he never moved. So I was going to go back to him, go around him and take off. Before I got back to the Cessna, a Learjet pulled up behind the Cessna an stopped. So I went around both of them, took off, flew 8 miles away to KOKC, came back to KPWA and both of them were still parked in the taxiway at same position. (AIGround?) 

I always thought that if AI was coming into an airport that didn't have a free parking spot, then the sim deleted the AI.

P3D will still stop AI independently.  One way to make sure AIGround isn't the one stopping the AI, flash your landing lights on and off, then AIGround will temporarily allow all AI that were stopped to proceed (if it was the program that stopped them).  

Re: AI deletion for lack of free parking spots, I think the other posters were referring to taxi out (departure) situations.

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I read through the thread, but didn't see this mentioned. Are there any provisions for preventing an AI aircraft from entering the active during a user short final? Always annoying when AI pulls out onto the active right as I'm landing.


- Aaron

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Posted (edited)

Hey Roland,

I sent you this via email, but I'm not sure you received it.

Nice work on the programs by the way.  Been trying it out in different areas to give it a good workout.

I have encountered a weird scenario though.
 
I decided to watch YSSY for a while.  I have the Fly Tampa version.  I noticed that there were no arrivals at all.
 
Watching AI on the Aivlasoft map, I noticed that all AI heading to YSSY were being deleted at about FL300+/-100 feet or so.
If I turn off AIFlow, they don't delete and traffic starts to flow into YSSY.
 
AiFlow shows that my aircraft is on the ground at YSSY.
 
I also have these settings in the ini:
 
AIARRIVALSPACING=10.0
AIMAXHOLDING=50
AITURBULENCESCALAR=1.0
AISPEEDSCALAR=1.0
AITURNSCALAR=1.0
AIMONITORRADIUS=200000
USERAISEPARATIONDISTANCE=0.0
INSIMMESSAGELEVEL=0
AIANTIRUNWAYINCURSION=1
AIBADAPPROACHFILTER=0
AIGOAROUNDLEAVEAREA=0
 
I've tried with different combinations of the two last filters, but nothing changed with traffic disappearing at FL300.
I also tried it out with v1.01, and the same thing happened with that version.
 
It's only at YSSY that I've noticed this.  All other airports I've visited seem fine.
 
Any ideas what could be the culprit?  I don't use any AI traffic limiter of any sort, and I double checked the FSUIPC AI limiter just in case, which I have never used either.
Edited by netshadoe
I con't speel

Devin Pollock
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1 hour ago, slait said:

I read through the thread, but didn't see this mentioned. Are there any provisions for preventing an AI aircraft from entering the active during a user short final? Always annoying when AI pulls out onto the active right as I'm landing.

Sure, make sure AIANTIRUNWAYINCURSION=1 is in your .ini file.  However, check out the readme for what it does because it can cause surprising actions in non-intended use cases.  For example, if you're flying (or slewing) directly over the airport below 1500 ft AGL to observe ground and approach activity, the anti-incursion might be triggered for AI on the ground.  Also don't taxi (or slew) on the ground over 40 mph if you have the option enabled.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, netshadoe said:

Hey Roland,

I sent you this via email, but I'm not sure you received it.

Nice work on the programs by the way.  Been trying it out in different areas to give it a good workout.

I have encountered a weird scenario though.
 
I decided to watch YSSY for a while.  I have the Fly Tampa version.  I noticed that there were no arrivals at all.
 
Watching AI on the Aivlasoft map, I noticed that all AI heading to YSSY were being deleted at about FL300+/-100 feet or so.
If I turn off AIFlow, they don't delete and traffic starts to flow into YSSY.
 
AiFlow shows that my aircraft is on the ground at YSSY.
 
I also have these settings in the ini:
 
AIARRIVALSPACING=10.0
AIMAXHOLDING=50
AITURBULENCESCALAR=1.0
AISPEEDSCALAR=1.0
AITURNSCALAR=1.0
AIMONITORRADIUS=200000
USERAISEPARATIONDISTANCE=0.0
INSIMMESSAGELEVEL=0
AIANTIRUNWAYINCURSION=1
AIBADAPPROACHFILTER=0
AIGOAROUNDLEAVEAREA=0
 
I've tried with different combinations of the two last filters, but nothing changed with traffic disappearing at FL300.
I also tried it out with v1.01, and the same thing happened with that version.
 
It's only at YSSY that I've noticed this.  All other airports I've visited seem fine.
 
Any ideas what could be the culprit?  I don't use any AI traffic limiter of any sort, and I double checked the FSUIPC AI limiter just in case, which I have never used either.

Hi Devon, were the AI in hold (by AIFlow) when they disappeared?  With an AI spacing of 10 nm, that might be causing a lot of hold activity.  So one thought:  This could be particular to YSSY based on the AI tending to get injected at the edge of the reality bubble and then getting put immediately into hold due to the high AIARRIVALSPACING value you're using.  They then egress the reality bubble during a portion of their hold circle (made large due to high alt cruise speed) and get deleted by P3D. 

A possible solution:  bump down AIARRIVALSPACING or if you want to keep that where that is, bump down AIMONITORRADIUS so AI are "more inside" the bubble before holding actions occur.  The default AIMONITORRADIUS radius of 200000 meters (108 nm) extends to the edge of the bubble, so it can be reduced.

 

 

Edited by Clipper Ocean Spray

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