Air Marshal uses deadly force

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"Its all BS, really it is.So called security in the UK and US has only shot innocent people. Its like drowning people to prove that they aren't witches. We really are not in the kind of danger that some people try to make out. Yet, we have quasi militia as security thugs. Hopefully, once Blair goes, the UK can seperate itself from Bush induced paranoia and get the #### out of Iraq where we don't belong."Personally I think this is a rather baiting comment and also has nothing to do with the thread I (and I underscore "I") created. If you want to claim an innocent person was shot yesterday, you have the right. I think you are right--in the sense the person wasn't responsible for his actions by state of mind. But I feel what you refer to as "security thugs" acted 110 percent as they should have. Why you bring up Iraq, Bush or Blair I can only guess--since the guy did not run screaming through the aisle "down with America" or "down with Ultra Right Conservatives". He simply went crazy, for lack of a better word, and there was no time--none, for the Air Marshals to do a psych evaluation on the guy. If I continue to see tangents in this vein I will lock the thread. I did not open it so it could be an avenue for your politicizing or anyone else's.'Nuff said

[Guest beana51]

Well said John,and we said enough!At least I did.Colorful? a bit,enlightening? always.All in all, there are remarkable people out in the void of our space.Who would have ever thought a forum devoted to simming could evoke such stuff.And thats the problem,more aviation,less conjecturing of world events.Flying is universal,it cross all and any boundary's.Its language needs no embellishments from no one. "OF WE GO INTO THE WILD,And it gets WILD ,sometimes" I may have said it already ,but what the Hey,!"MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU"

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

Point taken. On a re-read my Iraq comment is somewhat disconnected. All I meant was there is some cause and effect in play.

[Guest Shalomar]

FLYing? It's cool. Trillions of birds and insects can't be wrong.Cause: Mental patients estranged from society and are literally second class citizens. Hinckley shoots a president. Now maybe things will get better for U.S.Merry Christmas and a Survivable "New Year":-beerchug

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"Cause: Mental patients estranged from society and are literally second class citizens"The big problem is so many people are still so ignorant as to believe that "mental problems" are just "in our heads" vs. manifestations of physical, genetic and environmental issues. That dates to biblical times I am sorry to say. Bipolar disorder and other disorders such as phobias, schizophrenia, addiction, etc... are physical problems. Same with attention deficit and other disorders. We simply did not have the tools to measure these things until very recently, and even today, our tools are very crude.Problem is, whether we have these problems or not, from external observation (law enforcement, etc) we have to be evaluated by what our threat is. Someone asked if the suspect couldn't have been tasered.How many volts does a taser carry? I suspect the equation="taser + real bomb=boom!" I don't think it any slight against people with these disorders vs. how things ended up. People with such disorders have brought down planes--one that sticks in my memory was the downing of a BAE 146 some years ago over California. Had an Air Marshal been there, the outcome might have been different, although the underlying illness of the man that caused it was still the same.-John

[Guest Shalomar]

FLYing? It's cool. Trillions of birds and insects can't be wrong.Biblical times? "Demons" were cast out. I bet most patients nowadays even in the heat of passion would respond to "Unclean spirit- DEPART!!!" if only with laughter.Best Regards, Donny:-wave

[Guest saudi_777]

"And thats the problem,more aviation,less conjecturing of world events.Flying is universal,it cross all and any boundary's.Its language needs no embellishments from no one."Totally agreed. And, putting all that we've said aside: MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU!!!! :-waveCheers,

[Guest beana51]

And the same to you Sir,I'm glad to hear from you. You make me feel good!My feelings also! "May all the Gods of peace Prevail,and their blessings comes over the world" Stay Well! VIN! :-wave

[mgh 89]

As the recent incident in the UK has been mentioned it's worth pointing out that immediately after the event the newspapers reported that the suspect was wearing a bulky jacket, that there were wires hanging from it, that when challenged by the police he jumped over a ticket barrier, and then ran down an escalator towards the trains before beinmg shot. It's now known that these reports were incorrect. There is an independent investigation under way. This is not only looking into the actions of the police officers who fired the shots, but also the command and control chain and the information which was given to those officers, as well as the information that the police gave to the public.In these cases it's generally advisable to wait for the results of any inquiry before believing what the newspapers report or calling people "thugs".

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

The heated part of this discussion has been and gone. Can we be nice now :)

[Guest Shalomar]

FLYing? It's cool. Trillions of birds and insects can't be wrong.Now that we know what we know, there is no doubt it "could have been handled better". If only they had known everything we know now. But, it may happen again- let's remember how quickly friends can disagree when they essentially agree- we all wanna live.I worked at KABE up till Feb 2002, yes, the writing is on the wall unfortunately. But if you are willing to look at them the mistakes go way back. People in the 70s would die for their boss'es money. Then nonresistance got pushed. Now those "nonresistant" citizens are on the front line- this is as real as it gets. Flexibility???Best Regards, Donny:-beerchug

[Guest Mr. T]

"Now that we know what we know, there is no doubt it "could have been handled better"." I really do not think that it could have been handled in a much better manner. As it has been pointed out earlier non-leathal weapons may have proved to have detonated a bomb if had been carrying one and if someone did have a bomb they may have wanted to kill police officers and paramedics. The marshal only had a split second to decide what to do and for all he knew if he did not act decisively a lot of innocent people might not have been able to go home to their families that night. All terrorists are insane to some degree or another and cannot be counted on to do the obvious thing. Since the man who did get shot was really mentally unstable maybe he should not have been riding on a plane or near an airport in the first place. Respectfully, Taylor

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

The real question is are people more likely to be killed by terrorists are killed by armed edgey security officials (police, air marshalls, whoever,...). Think about it, would a terrorist really be put off by an air marshall? Would an evil doer announce their intentions, like Blofeld, so that their attempts could be thwarted?Even if you successfully argue that each individual is so at risk from terrorism that we need to be cossetted by arm militia, I would arge that the net risk to every individual has actually increased as a result of these 'security' measures.

[Guest beana51]

Hi,trouble is the answer to your Questions may be they,the Marshall's are not presant,or if they are, do nothing.They can sit and wait. No matter, a guy is going nuts,does have,or does not have a device that could kill all on board,or anywhere else in the airport environment. I mean how many passengers act like that .Like its after 9/11.It ain't the same any more,never will be.Ya just don't do things like that in an environment like it is now.Try that on an Israeli airline.Most, if not all,international air ports have armed soldiers patrolling everywhere. Marshall's and others are entrusted to keep us "Safer",they are not "Shrinks". The 9/11 commission has concluded an attack is imminent. Matter of time,they say. Any way,the guys wife new he was a "Macadamine", she shoulda told someone,BEFORE,that he had no medicine.Then they coulda put a "Special monkey jacket" on him. With all due respect,please stop drinking the "Kool-Aid",as Mr. Bill O' Reilly would say. The lives theses guys save could be ours. It would have been comforting to all those people on those planes,on 9/11 to have them on board then.When I fly,or my family is flying I'm glad they may be on board. So sit in your seat,enjoy the scenery,read book,fall asleep,and don't start screaming ya got a bomb!.I hope you would agree? VIN "Wonder if the Families of all those 9/11 people are having a Merry Christmas??"

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"The real question is are people more likely to be killed by terrorists are killed by armed edgey security officials (police, air marshalls, whoever,...)."I think here in the States, the risk of being killed by a terrorist (although small compared to the risk of being killed by a drunk driver) far outweighs that of being killed by an armed security official. Since 9/11, we've had once incident where deadly force was used vs. a passenger. One incident, out of millions of passengers and air miles flown. Yet terrorists have tried more than once to attack us again here and abroad.And look no further than Israel, which has probably the strictest in air and airport security of any country in the world. I can't recall when I've heard of either a terrorist attack, or use of force against a civilian, on one of El Al's flights.In the case of 9/11, terrorists took advantage of a system where aircraft were completely insecure in the air. Yet take a look at what happened when the passengers fought back--they didn't reach their target. Yes, an aircraft was lost, but many lives were saved. I do believe it gives not only the terrorist, but also the casual crook pause knowing there's that uncertainty there and they risk an confrontation with security.I think many are left of the opinion the U.S. is an armed camp after 9/11. Hardly. Security (if it's there) doesn't impede on our lives, and neither do the police. I can go a week or more between seeing patrol cars in my community, and I live in a metro area of 3 million plus people (one which played host to at least one of the 9/11 terrorists). I am sure they patrol the crummy neighborhoods, stop for coffee, etc... But they aren't so obvious as to make me feel I live "under the gun." And I cannot remember the last time I saw any authority with an automatic weapon.Even airport security lines rarely move slower than pre 9/11 days. Pre 9/11 I worked in a job that had me flying once or more a week. Post 9/11 I've flown less, but when I fly, I usually clear security even with wife and daughter in tow in a matter of minutes and sometimes seconds.It's good people keep concerned over security--when it becomes an excuse to enforce restrictions on our lives that are political (such as a recent rally where only supporters of a certain politician were allowed in), then people need to hold the politicians accountable. IMHO, that's abuse of the trust we've placed in the government after 9/11 that security will only be used where needed. But in general, security has not impeded my life or the lives of anyone I know.-John