SOUTHWEST AIRLINE SKIDS OF THE RUNWAY!

[Guest bobsk8]

An ATP friend of mine and I were talking about this , this morning:1. The minimum runway needed for this aircraft 4500 feet2. Length of runway from touchdown zone to end 4900 feet Now factor in , Gusty conditions, 400 foot ceiling, unknown braking action, inches of snow on the runway, tailwind, RVR of 3500 feet, , no autothrottle on the aircraft, and I guess the flight crew must have thought that this was going to be their lucky day, cause they would need it all. Apparently, they guessed wrong.

[Guest beana51]

Well said,and how any one not agree with that.This time of the year,with Christmas coming ,its just awful.Every Christmas for that family will be marked by sadness and the absence of a loved one.So to that memory for as you say, the Pilots.Also to include all those people involved with the rescue,and the other dirty,cold work. Again ,when these things happen in a plane,on an airport its very big news.Yet,often in small print,in the police reports in some newspapers,all over the country,accidents happen every day,and night.I don't know the numbers of people who died on the hyways last year,but I do know they do,in large numbers.Certainly ,"drunks,potheads,and more frequently bad weather,bad drivers,and bad cars ,account for this National nightmare on the Road. We know "Road Rage is not far behind as a contributing cause.Accidents do happen however,be it flying,driving,or any other human activity,and when they do ,its sad,for all.VIN

[Jeff Nielsen 1,385]

First of all an observation by some of the posters here: Having just experienced that same storm here in KC the winds were almost ZERO. At the time of the accident at MDW I believe the winds were under 10 kts. Snow storms like that which last for sustained periods of time usually have calm winds, I say usually. I believe this was the case here as far as the winds were concerned.Also, I also think SWA policy is no autothrottle(s) are used on their aircraft.I think that we're going to find that this was a simple overrun case here. Any time you have a short runway that is contaminated, these things can happen.The bottom line is we also don't know any other contrbuting factors which may play out here, so we're just guessing right now.

[Guest bobsk8]

>Well said,and how any one not agree with that.This time of>the year,with Christmas coming ,its just awful.Every Christmas>for that family will be marked by sadness and the absence of a>loved one.So to that memory for as you say, the Pilots.Also to>include all those people involved with the rescue,and the>other dirty,cold work.> Again ,when these things happen in a plane,on an>airport its very big news.Yet,often in small print,in the>police reports in some newspapers,all over the>country,accidents happen every day,and night.I don't know the>numbers of people who died on the hyways last year,but I do>know they do,in large numbers.Certainly ,"drunks,potheads,and>more frequently bad weather,bad drivers,and bad cars ,account>for this National nightmare on the Road. We know "Road Rage is>not far behind as a contributing cause.>Accidents do happen however,be it flying,driving,or any other>human activity,and when they do ,its sad,for all.>VIN> You left out people talking on their cellphones and swerving all over the road.... :)

[Guest beana51]

Of course your correct Bob,here in the boneyard ,there is no restriction on use of cell phone,that led to no use of turn indicators. The don't wear helmets on bikes also.Lets face it,somethings will kill you,a matter of time.How?,is best saved for the end Now me, Well it will probley be at the hands of a jealous husband,when I'm 95,or so! EAT, DRINK,AND BE MERRY,FOR TOMORROW YOU MAY BE...... CHEERS! VIN! :-beerchugPS: WHEN DEATH SMILES AT YOU ,ALL YOU CAN DO IS SMILE BACK :-sun1

[Guest Shalomar]

WHEN DEATH SMILES, TRY TO KEEP IT THAT WAYWay before 9/11, I was doing serious thinking about a system that could stop truck bombs without destroying aircraft. Maybe the wrong person is thinking now.FLYing? It's cool. Trillions of birds and insects can't be wrong.

[Fitz505 21]

I've read a few reports that he landed on 31C which is 6500 feet. What a lot of the "experts" are bemoaning is the extremely short overrun at the end, due to the lack of any expansion room. Never been there, but the news footage certainly shows that. Interestingly enough, it was commented by one, that what is needed is a type of what we truckers call a runaway ramp. These are filled with a type of pea gravel at a deep depth, which will bog down a runaway truck (usually towards the bottom of a long steep hill). Sounds like just the thing for a place like Midway. Fitz

[Guest B1900 Mech]

Here are the NOTAM'S for KMDW CHICAGO MIDWAY INTL, A0582/04 (12/042) - MIDDLE MARKER (ILS) 13C ILS MM DCMSN 20 DEC 09:01 UNTIL UFN A0564/05 (12/030) - APPROACH LIGHTING SYSTEM UNSERVICEABLE 13C WIE UNTIL UFN A0562/05 (12/025) - GLIDE PATH (ILS) UNSERVICEABLE 31C WIE UNTIL UFN A0561/05 (12/024) - LOCALIZER (ILS) UNSERVICEABLE 31C WIE UNTIL UFN A0560/05 (12/026) - RUNWAY ALIGNMENT INDICATOR LIGHTS UNSERVICEABLE 31C WIE UNTIL UFN A0554/05 (12/019) - RUNWAY CLOSED 13C/31C WIE UNTIL UFN A0550/05 (12/016) - RUNWAY CLOSED 13R/31L WIE UNTIL UFN A0550/04 (12/008) - LOCATOR, OUTER, (ILS) NOT AVAILABLE RWY 31C ILS COMPASS LOCATOR THE OUTER MARKER DECOMMISSIONED WIE UNTIL UFN A0549/05 (12/015) - RUNWAY CLOSED 13L/31R WIE UNTIL UFN A0530/04 (FDC 4/2955) - RNAV (GPS) RWY 13C, ORIG... LNAV MDA 1100/HAT 489 ALL CATS. VIS CAT D 1 1/2. CIRCLING CATS A/B/C MDA 1160/HAA 540. TEMPORARY CRANE 848 MSL 849 FEET NW OF RWY 22R. WIE UNTIL UFN A0527/05 (11/105) - EON TACAN UNSERVICEABLE WIE UNTIL UFN A0481/03 (FDC 3/9397) - FI/T CHICAGO MIDWAY INTL, CHICAGO, IL. VOR/DME RNAV OR GPS RWY 22L, AMDT 3B... VOR/DME RNAV PORTION NA. WIE UNTIL UFN A0437/04 (FDC 4/0610) - INSTRUMENT APPROACH PROCEDURE CHANGED RNAV (GPS) RWY 22R, ORIG... LNAV MDA 1100/HAT 488 ALL CATS. VIS CAT D 1 1/2. CIRCLING CATS A/B/C MDA 1160/HAA 540. MINIMUM ALTITUDE CIDIG 1420. EXARE TO RW22R: 3.07 DEGREES, TCH 55. TEMPORARY CRANE 848 MSL 849 FEET NW OF RWY 22R. WIE UNTIL UFN A0436/04 (FDC 4/0608) - INSTRUMENT APPROACH PROCEDURE CHANGED RNAV (GPS) RWY 13L, ORIG... LNAV MDA 1100/HAT 491 ALL CATS. VIS CAT D 1 1/2. CIRCLING CATS A/B/C MDA 1160/HAA 540. TEMPORARY CRANE 848 MSL 849 FEET NW OF RWY 22R. WIE UNTIL UFN A0041/05 (FDC 5/0362) - INSTRUMENT APPROACH PROCEDURE CHANGED ILS RWY 4R, AMDT 9C. ILS OR LOC/DME RWY 13C, ORIG. ILS OR LOC/DME RWY 31C, ORIG. RNAV (GPS) RWY 4L, ORIG. RNAV (GPS) RWY 4R, ORIG. RNAV (GPS) RWY 31C, ORIG. RNAV (GPS) RWY 31R, ORIG. NDB RWY 4R, AMDT 12C. CIRCLING CATS A/B/C MDA 1160/HAA 540. TEMPORARY CRANE 848 FEET MSL 849 FEET NW OF RWY 22R. WIE UNTIL UFN 12/031 - TMPA SEE ATCCC MSG WIE UNTIL 09 DEC 23:59 11/032 - TOWER 883 (289 AGL) 5.5 ESE LGTS OTS (ASR 1063456) WIE UNTIL 10 DEC 15:00FDC 4/1269 - 4/1269 CANCELLED BY FDC 5/9473 ON 10/14/05 12:07

[RFields5421 1]

While the runway is 6,500 feet - the "Landing Length" is 5,826 feet due to the displaced threhold and obstructions in the approach path.http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0512/00081ILD31C.PDFAlso here is the METAR from the FAA Preliminary Report:WEATHER: 0115 11007KT 1/2SM SN FZFG VV003 M04/M05 A3006 R31C/4500V5007 kts tailwind, 1/2 mile visibility in snow. Not sure what the 4500V500 means. Anyone?KMDW is one of many airports in the US which has NO overrun capacity - As near as I can tell from the satellite photos is there is about 170 feet beyond the cross taxiways. The street / intersection is less than 150 meters from the end of the runway - about 80 meters from the ILS antennas the plane took out.Everyone loves these inner city airports - but there is no protection for the public or the passengers if an aircraft goes long on landing at airports like KMDW, KBUR, KDAL - or many others.These airports turn what should be a relatively minor overrun into a major accident. I don't think a gravel trap would have done much in this case because it would have to be very short - the recommended length is 500M minimum - and it probably would have been frozen solid in that weather.

[AlaskanFlyboy 7]

>Also here is the METAR from the FAA Preliminary Report:>>WEATHER: 0115 11007KT 1/2SM SN FZFG VV003 M04/M05 A3006>R31C/4500V500>>7 kts tailwind, 1/2 mile visibility in snow. Not sure what the>4500V500 means. Anyone?That's the RVR. it's the visibility in feet, the V means variable. So it says that Runway 31C had a visibility ranging from 4500 feet to 500 feet.----------------------------------------------------------------John MorganReal World: KGEG, UND Aerospace Spokane Satillite, Private ASEL 141.2 hrs, 314 landings, 46 inst. apprs.Virtual: MSFS 2004"There is a feeling about an airport that no other piece of ground can have. No matter what the name of the country on whose land it lies, an airport is a place you can see and touch that leads to a reality that can only be thought and felt." - The Bridge Across Forever: A Love Story by Richard Bach

[michal 44]

>3500 feet, , no autothrottle on the aircraft, sorry but autothrottle (or lack of) normally has no bearing on an accident like this.Michael J.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/pmdg_744F.jpghttp://www.hifisim.com/images/asv_beta_member.jpg

[Guest panda234]

CNN is reporting that the thrust reversers failed to kick in automatically so that the pilots applied brakes manually. I didn't think reversers were automatic. Maybe they meant the autobrake didn't kick in? That would make sense, as the few seconds it would take to realize they weren't working and move to manual braking would make all the difference in marginal (at best) conditions. billg

[RFields5421 1]

According to a response to a question at a press conference in Dallas on Friday - Southwest does not use AutoBrake"We prefer to have the pilot control the stopping of the aircraft"Southwest insists on the same cockpit, same instruments, same panel layout and the same procedures in all their aircraft - no matter which model.Of course there are some differences - but SWA will not implement a procedural change like AutoBrake or AutoThrottle unless it is available on ALL their aircraft.This consistency has been shown many times to be a significant factor in avoiding accidents and keeping minor incidents from turning into major accidents.Southwest has retired all the B732's and is spending a couple hundred million dollars bringing their older 733's up to 737NG cockpits and systems.Though this accident is terrible - it also emphasized how well SWA works most of the time and how any other airline in the world would love to have their safety record.This will be only the second hull writeoff due to an accident in their history and this is the first fatality in 35 years of operation.

[michal 44]

>This will be only the second hull writeoff due to an accident>in their history and this is the first fatality in 35 years of>operation.are you sure this aircraft is beyond repair? I saw only the engine(s) damaged and the nose section.Michael J.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/pmdg_744F.jpghttp://www.hifisim.com/images/asv_beta_member.jpg

[RFields5421 1]

It went off the runway faster, hit more solid obstructions and went farther than the one at KBUR - which was scrapped.So I'm expecting it to also be scrapped.