Still worried about the flight model ... how planes move

[joec63 253]

And as I've mentioned there is a camera shake feature . Do we even know if it's enabled /disabled in the example

[Andreas Stangenes 1,628]

2 minutes ago, jon b said:

Jeez, where do I start ....

 

[robert young 2,897]

1 hour ago, Andreas Stangenes said:

I dont know, man. That's a 738, and it's obviously pretty gusty, and it's free hand filming. The camera isn't mounted, so it's difficult to see whats really going on.

Look CAREFULLY at this video. The nose is rising and falling in response to SUBSTANTIAL yoke inputs. It is NOT bobbing up and down by itself. The pilot is constantly adjusting pitch in order to keep the glideslope/Papi lights accurate, not because there is pitch instability. Please look again very carefully. The nose of this aircraft is not unstable. It is solid as a rock. The pitch changes are commanded by ASSERTIVE push and pull on the yoke. The aircraft is not exaggeratedly pitching up and down through small movements, or any big airmass movements. The adjustments in pitch are to keep the aircraft bang on target against quite small gusts/lift changes, but the nose is NOT UNSTABLE. It is doing exactly what the pilot is inputting. This is a million miles from MSMS 2020 videos. Chalk and cheese.

Edited August 13, 2020 by n4gix
PLEASE!!! Leave out the linked videos when replying!!!

[The Flight Level 2,112]

Good research my friends. Tough to gage the amount of up and down when the bird is getting blown around, but I’d say there is some vertical up and down motion of the nose in both vids. It is normal to have some up and down movements when hand flying and concentrating on maintaining a perfect glide slope? As an aside - remember the perspective of these videos. Your sight line behind the pilots will accentuate the slightest movement up and down as you reference to a horizontal perspective.

[Andreas Stangenes 1,628]

1 hour ago, robert young said:

Look CAREFULLY at this video. The nose is rising and falling in response to SUBSTANTIAL yoke inputs. It is NOT bobbing up and down by itself. .

Got a question for you, Robert. What would you see out the window if the pilots didn't do any of those inputs on the yoke? Don't know if it's a silly question, but ... I mean.. How would you represent forces acting upon the aircraft when you don't have any force feedback. You kinda need to have a visual representation of the impact of those forces. 

[fogboundturtle 2,708]

Until Robert touches and actually flight in-game, I don't think he is in a position to critique MSFS flight dynamics. I am sorry but controller sensitivity is extremely high by default and needs to be done down. This is something you can't know until you actually flew in the game. Now the default aircraft are not perfect but I feel a lot of his comments could be resolved by a simple controller sensitivity tweak

[Bottle 663]

1 hour ago, Andreas Stangenes said:

shows this bobbing up and down movement of the nose

The amplitude of the dips seem completely believable to me. It’s the frequency that appears to be too high. Could be the flight model, could be his trim set, could be his input calibration or it could be his flying technique. Impossible to tell really.

[Bottle 663]

This might be a better diagnostic video of the FM in the press release build since you can see the yoke and throttle.

 

[The Flight Level 2,112]

9 minutes ago, fogboundturtle said:I am sorry but controller sensitivity is extremely high by default and needs to be done down. This is something you can't know until you actually flew in the game. Now the default aircraft are not perfect but I feel a lot of his comments could be resolved by a simple controller sensitivity tweak

Exactly! We have no idea about the sensitivity settings.

[The Flight Level 2,112]

12 minutes ago, fogboundturtle said:

 I am sorry but controller sensitivity is extremely high by default and needs to be done down. This is something you can't know until you actually flew in the game. Now the default aircraft are not perfect but I feel a lot of his comments could be resolved by a simple controller sensitivity tweak

Exactly! We have no idea about the sensitivity settings!

[hangar 660]

My 2 questions are:

1. What default out of the box MS plane has not needed fixing to it's flight dynamics? My point is that it's no surprise that we may not get proper physics out of the box, especially considering how new their new physics modeling is and how imperfect it likely is considering this is a first run for it.

2. Why spend 30+ pages arguing a point which you're clearly upset about, when you've already admitted that this can be fixed in literally 5 seconds and that it's so basic of a fix it can be considered aircraft physics 101? (im paraphrasing, but those are essentially your claims, your own words). Point is, according to your own words, you've actually wasted way more time in trying to prove a point than the time it would have taken you to just fix it and be done with it.

I know your upset that you mistook some MS marketing as literal promises, but this isn't worth turning 10 shades of blue over, IMO.

Edited August 13, 2020 by hangar

[robert young 2,897]

17 minutes ago, fogboundturtle said:

Until Robert touches and actually flight in-game, I don't think he is in a position to critique MSFS flight dynamics. I am sorry but controller sensitivity is extremely high by default and needs to be done down. This is something you can't know until you actually flew in the game. Now the default aircraft are not perfect but I feel a lot of his comments could be resolved by a simple controller sensitivity tweak

Disagree. It doesn't matter how "sensitive" an input controller is. The sensitivity is implemented in curves, either convex, concaved or a straight line. The total authority is not increased by these curves, only the distribution of authority over the range. A Stick full back will produce maximum deflection for that aircraft. It can't produce more. I do not believe EVERY single video is a demonstration of maximum "sensitivity". Even if someone opted for a maximum convex curve in their settings that does not explain the exaggerated bobbing up and down with a TINY movement of the stick. Aircraft simply do not behave like this. Sure, they might rise or fall AS COMMANDED but they do not act like wild yo-yos, bucking up and down.

It is not however all about control inputs. It is about how the aircraft responds to airmass and commanded attitude. Forgive me for the stuck record, but aircraft have far more pitch stability than these videos are showing. The reason you are not hearing the same thing elsewhere is because there is an NDA in force and experienced or professional pilots on the testing team are not permitted to discuss any critical findings outside of their loop.

I know this is a great sim for which the devs should be congratulated. But I don't pay attention to anything other than what I'm seeing and for the umpteenth time, you can judge fairly well what is going on by simpy observing. That's the method I used with my own work - watching videos of my own flights from an armchair which gives a refreshingly more objective view.

Edited August 13, 2020 by robert young

[jon b 2,041]

2 minutes ago, Doering said:

remember the perspective of these videos. Your sight line behind the pilots will accentuate the slightest movement up and down as you reference to a horizontal perspective.

Yes, that’s exactly right, it’s not what you’d see as the pilot, and the bobbing that you would see as a pilot is subconsciously erased to a large degree by head and eye movements. It’s when you have a fixed camera view like in the sim theses things look exaggerated.

The 747, as with any other aircraft really , will constantly have lots of small corrections added during a hand flown approach like that.Thats the key really with a heavy like the 747, lots of little early correction , if you let it start diverging from the chosen flight path the inertia involved can make it a big task.

That said on a lovely calm stable morning you can set her up trimmed and just keep a light grip of the controls and she’ll behave nicely without without much need of dancing with the controls.

I’m on the alpha so better not talk about the specifics of the  default 747-8 handling In the sim ....until I become a paying customer on Tuesday 😉.

I will say I did not offer any feedback on the 747 as it’s a default aircraft I don’t get the impression it was aimed at being a totally authentic representation , just a default aircraft for a wide user base to enjoy, in that I’m sure it will succeed.

That sunny arrival jFK, RL 747 clip though ?.... I don’t know what went off with the landing but , no flair, thrust levers abruptly closed at 10ft.... tut tut Tut😂

It’s easy to criticise sat at home, but if they will put this stuff on YouTube!

[Concodroid 84]

Look, we're 5 days away. Please, just everyone stop worrying about this?

If you can't, think of FS2020 as a graphics game, with some systems modeled, like in FSX. There isn't any point worrying about it now. I'd just say don't use this thread until release.

[fogboundturtle 2,708]

1 minute ago, robert young said:

Disagree. It doesn't matter how "sensitive" an input controller is. The sensitivity is implemented in curves, either convex, concaved or a straight line. The total authority is not increased by these curves, only the distribution of authority over the range. A Stick full back will produce maximum deflection for that aircraft. It can't produce more. I do not believe EVERY single video is a demonstration of maximum "sensitivity". Even if someone opted for a maximum convex curve in their settings that does not explain the exaggerated bobbing up and down with a TINY movement of the stick. Aircraft simply do not behave like this. Sure, they might rise or fall AS COMMANDED but they do not act like wild yo-yos, bucking up and down.

It is not however all about control inputs. It is about how the aircraft responds to airmass and commanded attitude. Forgive me for the stuck record, but aircraft have far more pitch stability than these videos are showing. The reason you are not hearing the same thing elsewhere is because there is an NDA in force and experienced or professional pilots on the testing team are not permitted to discuss any critical findings outside of their loop.

I know this is a great sim for which the devs should be congratulated. But I don't pay attention to anything other than what I'm seeing and for the umpteenth time, you can judge fairly well whatb is going on by simpy observing. That's the method I used with my own work - watching videos of my own flights from an armchair which gives a refreshingly more objective view.

As much as I respect your conviction and passion toward aviation. I can tell you that a lot of the alpha tester who owns PPL and CPL talks a lots about this stuff and none of them have ever come to the extremism view you seem to be having toward MSFS. I have 150 hours of flight time with all sorts of aircraft in the game. Even if I can't comment on everything you have mention, I think you are wrong on many points. Now there is certain aspect of the flight dynamics that has not been model with the default aircraft. Something that was also talk about at great length.  We all come to the conclusion that it's a default aircraft and we believe Asobo decided to do this on purpose to make the sim more accessible to everyone. It doesn't mean the flight dynamic of the engine is not capable of more.  You can't forget the history of all flight sim that has come to past prior to MSFS : default aircraft as supposed to be just that.