News from LR

[GoranM 3,764]

43 minutes ago, scotchegg said:

Yes, we know that you can, and Goran ‘I never get involved in MSFS discussions and don’t want to talk about it in this forum’ Matovich, along with fellow XPlane dev Janov whatever his name is, also know this full well. But they won’t let silly little things like facts get in the way of entertaining rhetoric.

You never know, they might even throw in a comparison with how much time and storage would be necessary to convert orthos for the whole world for XP...?

As long as there is an MSFS and X-Plane, there will always be debates like this, that get perpetuated.  I said I rarely get involved.  If someone posts something incorrect in the X-Plane forums about MSFS or X-Plane, and I'm around, I'll reply.  

My surname is not "Matovich".  Use my real surname, or don't use it at all.  

Janov is one of the nicest guys you could meet.  What he does is almost similar to what I do.  He'll correct people on anything relating to X-Plane, and if he knows the info, FS2020, also..  And taking into account he's a 737 Captain, I would take his words very seriously about flight dynamics, over someone who has a student pilots license, praising FS2020 to high heaven and back.  Taking a cheap shot at him (Janov whatever his name is), when he never even addressed you in the first place, nor insulted you, is completely uncalled for.  (I honestly thought you were above that kind of thing)

I did chuckle in a "bury the hatchet" kind of way when I read your reply to me where you said "You know I always forgive you...".  Please don't ruin that.

I posted an image of the list of issues FS2020 has, because there were people already coming in talking about "FS2020 will do this, this and this...blah blah blah".  Not a single word from anyone about the issues listed.  For over a decade, the MSFS crowd has been slamming Austin and Laminar for X-Planes lack of seasons.  FS2020 is confirmed to not have seasons, and not a whimper from the same crowd.  Ironic doesn't even begin to describe that.

I don't mind robust discussions and banter.  But making it personal is definitely below the belt.

Also, please read this post where I do answer his question.

Edited August 8, 2020 by GoranM

[fogboundturtle 2,708]

Now that we are on a subject of seasons, this is a very good point. You can change the weather to snow but you can't have scenery based on season because all the scenery is AI generated. So you depend on that to generate your trees , houses, buildilng, Landclass, etc...This is the the differentiation between XP11 and MSFS. They would need to apply some kinda of filter on top of the AI generated scenery to simulate season. I am not sure how this would work.  Although, I am sure they will figure it out at some point.

I know a lot of people here are really sensitive about the vs discussion because they really do love XP11 and maybe they wish that XP11 had the same scenery beauty of it's counterpart will maintaining the functionally and plane they have right now. I do get understand this. It was clear in the PMDG press release regarding their new NG3 offering that LR/LM are not very developer friendly .They was a direct jab at them for ignoring developer on features they are looking for. Austin does what Austin does.  They've mention that whenever they ask Asobo to jump, they always reply : how high.  This is why I think you will see a migration of dev from XP11 to MSFS. Some might do both, some might not even come back.  This will not happen overnight but as the SDK and the platform itself improved, I don't see how LR can compete. Unless they have this unicorn XP12 build that solves all the issue they have been having since the existing of XP. 

[GoranM 3,764]

37 minutes ago, fogboundturtle said:

I love to have discussion about Xplane 11 and MSFS but we can we go back to reality for one second.  As much as I love making Ortho tile. MSFS is not just ortho. The AI draws every building based on the satellite imagery. Which means autogen in the game is on a level never seen before. It even draws facade and roof that tries to match as close as possible to the imagery.   Ortho is only putting a image over an overlay while using XP11 autogen.  So please. Stop with the XP11 can look as good/realistic with Ortho. It is not. It's not even close.

That being said.  MSFS will not be complete at launch. There is many features that will only come later. So at this point , when it comes to flight simming, XP11 is a better sim. The trouble for XP11 is that MSFS is going to improved rapidly while XP11 seems to have stalled. Vulkan does not address the outdated scenery and lighting in XP11. Maybe Austin is saving all of that tech for XP12. When is this going to come ? There is a lot of third party dev that will release more in-depth aircraft and XP11 is going to be left in the dust. You will see an exodus of both P3D and XP11 community if favor of MSFS .  MSFS as all the foundation of a good sim. But it's just that at launch, a foundation. 

I've seen many images and video of the scenery.  It doesn't do anything close to the extent you're describing.  Load up Sydney, Australia.  No Harbour Bridge.  It has a road over the water, but it's not what the harbour bridge looks like.  

Visit a marina.  Hamilton Island has one.  Off the coast of Australia.  It's a 2D image on the water. 

It looks great from a few thousand feet up, but a lot of the buildings are generic.  Many areas have clouds baked on the scenery, because the satellite image had a cloud when the satellite was passing over it.  There are many examples of this.

For what it is, I hope the updates are forthcoming, and very soon.  Because the way it stands now, I'm guessing a lot of people will be unhappy.

[fogboundturtle 2,708]

Just now, GoranM said:

I've seen many images and video of the scenery.  It doesn't do anything close to the extent you're describing.  Load up Sydney, Australia.  No Harbour Bridge.  It has a road over the water, but it's not what the harbour bridge looks like.  

Visit a marina.  Hamilton Island has one.  Off the coast of Australia.  It's a 2D image on the water. 

It looks great from a few thousand feet up, but a lot of the buildings are generic.  Many areas have clouds baked on the scenery, because the satellite image had a cloud when the satellite was passing over it.  There are many examples of this.

For what it is, I hope the updates are forthcoming, and very soon.  Because the way it stands now, I'm guessing a lot of people will be unhappy.

You are not right and not wrong either. The AI does have issue with bridges or certain building shape. The bridge under water is an issue in the alpha build. It didn't used to be this way. . It needs more training.  I am pretty sure it will be mostly fix by the time it release. There is area in the world where the imagery quality is very poor while others are very details.  I've done low flying and high flying in region with photogrammettry and non photogrammettry. It still blows away anything in XP11 by a millions miles. I am not trying to be a word not allowed here. 

One thing that I've noticed is that when you have super high quality scenery, issue you have mention does stick out a little more.  It's not perfect. I think people will find out that some area are better than others. Even if this is the case, it's better than anything out there. As they bring map update over the next few months, you will see significant improvement. The technology is really amazing tech. 

About happiness, When was the flight sim community ever happy about anything ? You can only focus on the flaws or focus on the positive. It's up to you to pick. Personally, I am excited. Maybe it will wake up Austin do make some drastic change in their game engine in XP12. Competition is a good thing and now the balls is in LR hands.

[GoranM 3,764]

4 minutes ago, fogboundturtle said:

Now that we are on a subject of seasons, this is a very good point. You can change the weather to snow but you can't have scenery based on season because all the scenery is AI generated. So you depend on that to generate your trees , houses, buildilng, Landclass, etc...This is the the differentiation between XP11 and MSFS. They would need to apply some kinda of filter on top of the AI generated scenery to simulate season. I am not sure how this would work.  Although, I am sure they will figure it out at some point.

I know a lot of people here are really sensitive about the vs discussion because they really do love XP11 and maybe they wish that XP11 had the same scenery beauty of it's counterpart will maintaining the functionally and plane they have right now. I do get understand this. It was clear in the PMDG press release regarding their new NG3 offering that LR/LM are not very developer friendly .They was a direct jab at them for ignoring developer on features they are looking for. Austin does what Austin does.  They've mention that whenever they ask Asobo to jump, they always reply : how high.  This is why I think you will see a migration of dev from XP11 to MSFS. Some might do both, some might not even come back.  This will not happen overnight but as the SDK and the platform itself improved, I don't see how LR can compete. Unless they have this unicorn XP12 build that solves all the issue they have been having since the existing of XP. 

FS2020 does not have seasons.  Manipulating the wording around doesn't really do much.  There are simply no seasons.  It has snow, and no snow.  X-Plane also has snow and no snow.  Of course it doesn't look as "pretty" as FS2020, but it does what it's supposed to do.  It has an effect on the ground friction.  I have no clue if the snow is FS2020 has an effect on the ground friction of aircraft.

People are passionate about their sims.  It's not just the X-Plane community.  Don't kid yourself.  It's both sides.  And maybe the MSFS community wished they had X-Planes flight dynamics.  Both sims have something to offer.  

As far as LR not being developer friendly, that's a straight out lie.  LR have a Slack group where they have invited developers to join and participate in discussions on X-Plane and what developers want from it.  It's been there for about 2 or 3 years.

As for the SDK, it's the FSX SDK, with a few extra's added to it.  So nothing really new.  

As far as not seeing how XP can compete with FS2020...I go back to what I always say.  They've been through this with every version of MSFS since FS98.  This will be no different.

[fogboundturtle 2,708]

Just now, GoranM said:

FS2020 does not have seasons.  Manipulating the wording around doesn't really do much.  There are simply no seasons.  It has snow, and no snow.  X-Plane also has snow and no snow.  Of course it doesn't look as "pretty" as FS2020, but it does what it's supposed to do.  It has an effect on the ground friction.  I have no clue if the snow is FS2020 has an effect on the ground friction of aircraft.

People are passionate about their sims.  It's not just the X-Plane community.  Don't kid yourself.  It's both sides.  And maybe the MSFS community wished they had X-Planes flight dynamics.  Both sims have something to offer.  

As far as LR not being developer friendly, that's a straight out lie.  LR have a Slack group where they have invited developers to join and participate in discussions on X-Plane and what developers want from it.  It's been there for about 2 or 3 years.

As for the SDK, it's the FSX SDK, with a few extra's added to it.  So nothing really new.  

As far as not seeing how XP can compete with FS2020...I go back to what I always say.  They've been through this with every version of MSFS since FS98.  This will be no different.

I think we have to disagree on the SDK and and LR relationship with dev. There is a reason why PMDG DC-6 is abandonware. 

I agree. XP11 does have a lot to offer. I still think as it stands, it's a more mature complete sim but it looks like word not allowed.  As far as the flight dynamics, I am not sure yet. We only have seen default aircraft in MSFS. I am sure once we get 3rd party product, we will see the full potential. Right now as it stands, XP11 does offer better and more functional default aircraft. No doubt in my mind on this one.  So yeah, XP will continue to live on but the userbase will be reduced overtime. You guys have to accept this reality. 

[GoranM 3,764]

You can disagree if you like.  But it's a fact.  The SDK IS the FSX SDK, with some additions.  It's been confirmed.  

What was said between Austin and PMDG is between Austin and PMDG.  Knowing Austin like I do, he's very accomodating.  If they were asking for something that was unreasonable, as in, a change in the graphics engine...that's not Austin not being accomodating.  That's Austin telling PMDG that it can't be done without re-writing X-Plane...which would be asking for way too much.  No matter who was asking for it.

Edited August 8, 2020 by GoranM

[fogboundturtle 2,708]

Aerosoft says the SDK is a brand new framework and they have to re-write everything. So who is lying now ?

[GoranM 3,764]

Got a link to that?  Because I've seen the FS2020 SDK.  And I've seen the FSX SDK.  They are VERY similar.  And the way glass displays are drawn is, unless I'm missing some key points, identical between FSX and FS2020.  

[fogboundturtle 2,708]

6 minutes ago, GoranM said:

Got a link to that?  Because I've seen the FS2020 SDK.  And I've seen the FSX SDK.  They are VERY similar.  And the way glass displays are drawn is, unless I'm missing some key points, identical between FSX and FS2020.  

https://forum.aerosoft.com/index.php?/topic/155177-aerosoft-microsoft-flight-simulator-developments/

[GoranM 3,764]

Is this what you're referring to?

Ahhh, I see the first questions… is this a free update from existing products? No, my friends, it is not.  There is a shite load of work already been invested in this new version. It is not a simple port, almost every single file is new. 

If so,  I will explain something to you.  I've started working on a new version of one of my add ons for X-Plane.  Every single piece of mesh, every single texture, the flight model, and almost all of the code, will be redone.  This does not mean we are adapting to a change of SDK.  This means an improvement on the previous version.  And that looks like what Aerosoft are doing.  It's certainly what I would do.  

This is not new, and has been done ever since FS9.  I've seen code rewrites between FS9 and FSX.  And they used almost identical SDK's.  Example:  PMDG and their 747-400.

And like I said, the FS2020 SDK is not identical to the FSX SDK.  It has the FSX SDK as a base, with some additions to it.  So of course some things will change.  

I think I'm done with this thread now.  It's the same thing, over and over.  There are things people will believe or disbelieve, things people will choose, and things people will dislike.  And that's fine.  But it isn't too much to ask to allow people to enjoy what they want to enjoy, without making personal attacks (I've seen people call X-Plane developers "idiots" if they don't move to FS2020, because that's where the money is) and constantly commenting "RIP X-Plane".  X-Plane is Austin's life's work.  He's dedicated decades to it.  RIP X-Plane?  Really?

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by GoranM

[fogboundturtle 2,708]

I think it's a new framework. Even PMDG has been hinting that everything has to be redone. If it was the same sdk, porting will be easy.

[tonywob 4,769]

1 hour ago, GoranM said:

FS2020 is confirmed to not have seasons, and not a whimper from the same crowd.  Ironic doesn't even begin to describe that.

Indeed, this one is real mystery to me 🙂

[Glenn_C 135]

12 minutes ago, fogboundturtle said:

I think it's a new framework. Even PMDG has been hinting that everything has to be redone. If it was the same sdk, porting will be easy.

Of course they are, they can charge another $120+ for their add-ons, there is never a free lunch at the PMDG cantine.

[fogboundturtle 2,708]

1 minute ago, Glenn_C said:

Of course they are, they can charge another $120+ for their add-ons, there is never a free lunch at the PMDG cantine.

That much as always been true. I do not support PMDG pricing policies. A2A simulation also said the same thing. Almost every dev that has come out and talk about MSFS said it's a new framework and have to redo everything. I know there is some FSX legacy component that was build for backward compatibility but if you want to take fully advantage of the modern flight dynamics, everything to be redone.