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Virtual-Chris

I need some help with the Caravan please...

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Hi all, I'm new to flight sim (haven't done this since the early days) and have selected the Caravan as my plane of choice to get familiar with and use for sight-seeing trips. I was wondering if anyone could be so kind as to answer a few questions... 

1. What is the role of the blue throttle lever vs black?  It seems in videos I've seen the blue one is always at full.  I've been adjusting them both in tandem, but not really understanding what I'm doing or what these levers are doing 🙂

2. When I take off with both black and blue throttles maxed, the engine indicators (Torque and ITT I think) in the MFD are both showing red flashing warnings so should I not be maximizing the throttle during take off?  That seems odd.

3. I find the plane very difficult to level off.  Just letting go of the yoke rarely results in level flight. So I try to nudge the trim up or down and sometimes that works, but it sometimes it causes wild swings in vertical speed even with tiny trim adjustments.  Am I doing something wrong?  Any tips for getting it levelled?

4. While on the subject of trim, should trim be set prior to take off?  On the throttle quadrant, there's a trim indicator and I believe you're supposed to line up the trim wheel with the line on the indicator?  Is that right?  It seems to take off just fine without this though.

5. If I use the altitude hold to level off, that obviously works wonders, but I should be able to do it myself as per my point #2 above.  Anyway, the other issue I seem to have is that if I'm in altitude hold mode, and try to turn, if I centre the yoke after the turn, the plane seems to roll the opposite direction sometimes very aggressively.  Again, am I doing something wrong?  If I use the heading knob on the autopilot, it works better than manually trying to turn but I should be able to turn while just using altitude hold right?

6. Can you go through your landing sequence for me?  I think I'm often coming in to hot and fast (bouncing off the runway) or too low and slow (barely making the end of the runway) so I could use some guidance on how best to set myself up for a good landing. Like what altitude/speed/distance I should be aiming for at a couple stages of final approach.  What throttle positions should I be at?  When should I lower the flaps?

I would much appreciate any help anyone can offer.

(ps. I use the Honeycomb yoke and Saitek throttles and pedals).

Edited by Virtual-Chris
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39 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

Hi all, I'm new to flight sim (haven't done this since the early days) and have selected the Caravan as my plane of choice to get familiar with and use for sight-seeing trips. I was wondering if anyone could be so kind as to answer a few questions... 

1. What is the role of the blue throttle lever vs black?  It seems in videos I've seen the blue one is always at full.  I've been adjusting them both in tandem, but not really understanding what I'm doing or what these levers are doing 🙂

The throttle controls engine torque (power) and is the black one on the left.

The prop controls the angle/pitch of the prop and, as a byproduct, the RPM of the prop. This is the blue one in the middle. Usually for takeoff and climb, and on final approach, this goes to full forward. In cruise and other phases of flight in turboprops and variable pitch pistons (like the Bonanza or Baron), different planes have different standards, but usually you pull the prop back a little so it isn't running so close to redline. The main reason for this is actually sound. The slower the prop spins, the quieter it is inside and outside the plane. Full back on the prop is the feather position, where the blades are inline with the aircraft motion - this is used in the event of an engine failure to minimize drag.

2. When I take off with both black and blue throttles maxed, the engine indicators (Torque and ITT I think) in the MFD are both showing red flashing warnings so should I not be maximizing the throttle during take off?  That seems odd.

To set max power, or takeoff power, the blue handle is full forward (that's the prop) and you slowly increase the throttle until you reach a limit, either Torque at 100% or ITT at the limitation. In turboprops, temperature and altitude influence what the max power you can get out of the engine, so no two takeoffs are exactly the same. Just slowly increase power until just before either ITT or Torque hit the red. Usually on a hard surfaced runway, you'd hold the brakes for part of that runup. A quick way to do this is hold the brakes, smoothly push the throttle up to about 75%, let it stabilize, release brakes and slowly put in the rest of the power. On a soft/unpaved runway, you don't want to hold brakes unless you have no choice, because you increase the chance of damaging the prop or ingesting FOD, so you start rolling with a little power and add power on your takeoff run. You continue to manage ITT and Torque with the throttle through climb, keeping 95%-100% torque as you climb. ITT will decrease with airspeed, so if you're seeing high ITT and struggling to climb, level off and let airspeed build, that will lower ITT and let you add in a little more power.

3. I find the plane very difficult to level off.  Just letting go of the yoke rarely results in level flight. So I try to nudge the trim up or down and sometimes that works, but it sometimes it causes wild swings in vertical speed even with tiny trim adjustments.  Am I doing something wrong?  Any tips for getting it levelled?

Trimming takes practice, but make gentle inputs on trim and the yoke. While you're learning to control it, don't worry about leveling off exactly at the right altitude, just practice slowly and smoothly getting control of your vertical speed. Also remember that as you level off, your speed will be increasing and that will require constant additional down-trim to counteract the increasing speed and lift being generated by the wing. Also, for reference, with the Honeycomb, I recommend setting your sensitivity for the 208 to -50% in pitch/elevator and -10% on roll/aileron. I've been quite happy with these. -20% to -30% is a happy middle ground for the yaw/rudder axis.

4. While on the subject of trim, should trim be set prior to take off?  On the throttle quadrant, there's a trim indicator and I believe you're supposed to line up the trim wheel with the line on the indicator?  Is that right?  It seems to take off just fine without this though.

That is correct, but takeoff trim settings can be adjusted depending on weight and balance also - but for in-sim, just line it up with the marker for takeoff. Don't forget to reset it after landing - it will be badly out of line after landing if you were trimming appropriately on approach and landing.

5. If I use the altitude hold to level off, that obviously works wonders, but I should be able to do it myself as per my point #2 above.  Anyway, the other issue I seem to have is that if I'm in altitude hold mode, and try to turn, if I centre the yoke after the turn, the plane seems to roll the opposite direction sometimes very aggressively.  Again, am I doing something wrong?  If I use the heading knob on the autopilot, it works better than manually trying to turn but I should be able to turn while just using altitude hold right?

You can't use altitude hold and manually control the plane with the autopilot in the sim - you're basically overpowering the autopilot servos, you just can't feel it because it's a sim. Use altitude hold to level off then disengage the autopilot. Map the autopilot master to a button easily accessible on the left side of the yoke - I use button 1 on the honeycomb. So you can quickly disengage it for a turn.  Remember when you enter a turn, you'll either need to apply back pressure to maintain altitude or trim up. Or both. Then reverse as you level off.

6. Can you go through your landing sequence for me?  I think I'm often coming in to hot and fast (bouncing off the runway) or too low and slow (barely making the end of the runway) so I could use some guidance on how best to set myself up for a good landing. Like what altitude/speed/distance I should be aiming for at a couple stages of final approach.  What throttle positions should I be at?  When should I lower the flaps?

@norman_99 is a better source than I am on this aircraft and for these numbers, but I'll tell you what I do...

I shoot for around 110 knots on downwind 1000' above the runway and usually go for the first notch of flaps here, which is flaps 20, and slow to about 100 kts - this is probably a little early and fast for flaps 20, but it is within the limitations and there's no easy way to get flaps 10 in the sim (other than using the mouse to manually select flaps 10). When you deploy the flaps, you'll get a boost in lift, so be prepared with nose down elevator or down trim. As you pass the threshold of the runway on downwind (so the end of the runway you plan to land on is either directly out your right or left window), pull power back almost to idle and start a 600 fpm descent until the end of the runway is behind you on a 45 degree angle, make your turn to base and in base, I usually go to full flaps with speed bleeding through about 90-80 kts at this point. As you turn final, keep slowing to about 65 kts, and as your crossing the threshold, in sim I tend to find I'm at about 57 kts. Actual landing speed tends to be in the high 40s/low 50s.

If you're not familiar with a standard traffic pattern, here's a quick read: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/airplane_handbook/media/09_afh_ch7.pdf

I do some patterns(-ish) in the 208 in these three videos..you can watch the speeds...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHzfjJ7U9KA at 20:15 I start with an overhead crosswind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz7rzVRf6cY this is a right downwind (though I start lower than 1000')

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=078ZaALzKPs at 13:00 I'm in a low off-angle right downwind (after a low pass on a crossing runway)

If you want to see a full traffic pattern (left traffic), I did one in the TBM here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sM9WMpuTdU

Speeds are pretty similar on downwind, base and final...

 

 

Edited by cwburnett
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Wow... this is fantastic insights and advice.  Thank you very much!  This gives me much better insights and I'll try your landing technique and see how that works.

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Just wanted to chime in and say thank you to @cwburnett for taking the time to provide such a detailed response to a new sim pilot. It would be a much nicer atmosphere in this forum if more threads went like this.

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6 hours ago, cwburnett said:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=078ZaALzKPs at 13:00 I'm in a low off-angle right downwind (after a low pass on a crossing runway)

 

 

 

In this video at about 12:00... when you were approaching the runway at 150 knots at a few hundred feet, I thought to myself... is he a former carrier pilot?  He knows there's no arrester hook here right?! LOL.  

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Not much more to add than what cwburnett has already said. For some reason MSFS does need a slower than real life speed at touchdown to avoid floating down the runway. Whether this is due to the aircraft dynamics, or an overly strong ground effect I'm not sure.

For reference, here is a card from one of our aircraft that shows takeoff and landing speeds, based on weight. (Kgs) Approach speed was held to 50', then reduced over the fence in the flare as power is brought off. Don't expect to hit these numbers correctly, but start from here and see if you need faster or slower.

Screenshot%202020-08-25%2011.43.25.png

This was stuck onto the sun visor in each aircraft, and used for every takeoff and landing.

Edited by norman_99
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Seems correct. Completed 20 flights with the C208 in FSeconomy and those are the numbers I 've been using.

Edited by Adrian123

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2 hours ago, norman_99 said:

Not much more to add than what cwburnett has already said. For some reason MSFS does need a slower than real life speed at touchdown to avoid floating down the runway. Whether this is due to the aircraft dynamics, or an overly strong ground effect I'm not sure.

For reference, here is a card from one of our aircraft that shows takeoff and landing speeds, based on weight. (Kgs) Approach speed was held to 50', then reduced over the fence in the flare as power is brought off. Don't expect to hit these numbers correctly, but start from here and see if you need faster or slower.

Screenshot%202020-08-25%2011.43.25.png

This was stuck onto the sun visor in each aircraft, and used for every takeoff and landing.

Thank you, this is awesome!


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3 hours ago, norman_99 said:

Not much more to add than what cwburnett has already said. For some reason MSFS does need a slower than real life speed at touchdown to avoid floating down the runway. Whether this is due to the aircraft dynamics, or an overly strong ground effect I'm not sure.

For reference, here is a card from one of our aircraft that shows takeoff and landing speeds, based on weight. (Kgs) Approach speed was held to 50', then reduced over the fence in the flare as power is brought off. Don't expect to hit these numbers correctly, but start from here and see if you need faster or slower.

Screenshot%202020-08-25%2011.43.25.png

This was stuck onto the sun visor in each aircraft, and used for every takeoff and landing.

Thanks, but those landing speeds seem 20knots higher than what the SIM likes. I use to hit the runway at 70 knots and that never seemed to result in a smooth landing.

 

10 hours ago, cwburnett said:

 

I shoot for around 110 knots on downwind 1000' above the runway and usually go for the first notch of flaps here, which is flaps 20, and slow to about 100 kts - this is probably a little early and fast for flaps 20, but it is within the limitations and there's no easy way to get flaps 10 in the sim (other than using the mouse to manually select flaps 10). When you deploy the flaps, you'll get a boost in lift, so be prepared with nose down elevator or down trim. As you pass the threshold of the runway on downwind (so the end of the runway you plan to land on is either directly out your right or left window), pull power back almost to idle and start a 600 fpm descent until the end of the runway is behind you on a 45 degree angle, make your turn to base and in base, I usually go to full flaps with speed bleeding through about 90-80 kts at this point. As you turn final, keep slowing to about 65 kts, and as your crossing the threshold, in sim I tend to find I'm at about 57 kts. Actual landing speed tends to be in the high 40s/low 50s.

 

 

 

I practised some landings this evening and nailed most of them thanks to you. If I’m not nailing them now, it has more to do with not being lined up properly more than speed which throws my concentration off. 

BTW, another problem I had was “aiming” consistently for the threshold and holding that in the appropriate place as I came in. I’m sure this is just coincidence, but I find if the threshold of the runway is aligned with the top of the compass housing that’s attached to the center windshield pillar, that’s a good sanity check. 

Even though your videos aren’t narrated, with the instruments in view and the sound of the flaps, I could actually learn a lot from them. 

One last question, I can’t get the thrust reverser to engage with any key or control... only by moving the onscreen throttle lever with the mouse. Is this my problem or the plane? I’m thinking this may come in handy for some real short field landings.

Thanks again. 

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5 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

Thanks, but those landing speeds seem 20knots higher than what the SIM likes. I use to hit the runway at 70 knots and that never seemed to result in a smooth landing.

If you're not loading up the plane with pax and gear, it's probably really light, so the slower speeds from the chart would apply in the real world.  But, yes, as norman_99 said, the flight model seems to like slower speeds that the RW plane.

 

5 minutes ago, Virtual-Chris said:

One last question, I can’t get the thrust reverser to engage with any key or control... only by moving the onscreen throttle lever with the mouse. Is this my problem or the plane? I’m thinking this may come in handy for some real short field landings.

Check this out for setting up reverse thrust...

 


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