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Impressions from a long time MSFS(Aces) developer

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There was no worse stuttering mess when released than FSX. It was terrible. We wont mention the Menu's bugs etc.

 

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1 hour ago, Andreas Stangenes said:

He thinks the flightmodel seems to hold up to his real life experience. He says the sim looks great. He says there are bugs with the AP and the FP functionality. The way he says it's a step backwards sounds very strange to me

I think he's mostly talking about the avionics, since one of the things he's interested in professionally is flight training for IFR and procedures.

Compared to the two major civilian flight sims, MSFS is lacking there, and a "step backwards" compared to what you can get out of the box with at least one of the current sims with a more functional suite of GPS models in the default product.

He's not allowing for future development by Asobo, or 3rd party payware add-ons, but there is nothing wrong in my view with reviewing a product "as is" because that's all we have right now. 

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X-Plane and Microsoft Flight Simulator on Windows 10 
i7 6700 4.0 GHz, 32 GB RAM, GTX 1660 ti, 1920x1200 monitor

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8 hours ago, filoux said:

If you analyse the new flight_model.cfg you will see it’s a concatenation of the old aircraft.cfg and air table in a txt format. That is to say based on derivatives.

You cannot describe the new FSX aerodynamic modeling simply be looking at the flight.model.cfg file. Have you looked at the SDK? I think you might be a bit happier if you were to take a gander at the flight model technical description and how to create a flight model cfg file. Many of the coefficients you saw and commented on are not actually used in the airplane flight model, but may be there for legacy flight model reasons and for autopilot control.

The new flight model uses 640 different surfaces for which the fundamental equations are solved and normalized for on a local basis, that is based on the particular element's geometry and location. There is interdependency as well, so that airflow changes from one surface will affect surfaces behind it so that things like prop wash, rudder blanking, etc. come from this simulation.  Another example - the stall characteristics come from the local stall state of the surface -- so it matters whether stall originates at the wing tip (symmetrically or symmetrically) or nearer the root, etc.

Exactly, how that is done is still a bit unclear to me because they state up front that they are not doing a complex CFD airflow simulation around the airplane model. Also, one constraint they were required to meet for Microsoft was that after all is computed, the total of all these individual contributions has to in the end match up with the FSX historical model to ensure a consistent behavior from a legacy airplane when used with the new model. So they go through an iterative normalization process to do this. I wonder what they would have come up with had they not been given this constraint.

Edited by 188AHC
PLEASE DON'T QUOTE LONG QUOTES
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16 hours ago, wim123 said:

interesting, but  i dont agree at all, when he says ppl will return to their old sims..hahaah no way.

this is the perfect low slow  flightsim.

yes the tubeliners, i understand why they are not happy, lets hope they fix the issues there quickly.

its all a very personal subjective point of view, as is mine too. (at least i admit it).

it is prematurely released, lets see when the updates are coming on.

So true, the only reason I haven't deleted P3D v5 is due to no PMDG aircraft, otherwise for my level of simming needs MSFs will provide enough of a platform to move forward.

I still have Aerowinx's PSX if I want next level detail of systems....and with a scenery injector to MSFS...

And to be honest I forgot how enjoyable it is to go low and slow and see what's out the windows.  Sometimes one doesn't want to spend 30mins plus creating flight plans, etc...

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21 minutes ago, Donstim said:

You cannot describe the new FSX aerodynamic modeling simply be looking at the flight.model.cfg file. Have you looked at the SDK? I think you might be a bit happier if you were to take a gander at the flight model technical description and how to create a flight model cfg file. Many of the coefficients you saw and commented on are not actually used in the airplane flight model, but may be there for legacy flight model reasons and for autopilot control.

Maybe you have information that I lack in which case apologies, but I agree with most of filoux's summary. I think you might be right about the "modern" flight model having different or adapted/new params, but after doing a lot of experiments I find that most of the params can be tweaked in a similar manner, but the Legacy model (to me at least) is much easier to tweak, in that changes show emphatically. For example trying to promote more side slip in the modern f/m is very difficult, but in the Legacy f/m it is comparitively easy.

I have gone through the SDK and I'm slightly confused about whether the "new" modelling is just a debug mode for reference or whether it is actually implemented. But whatever it is, it is the practical results that matter and so far I'm finding the Legacy version much easier and more flexible to tweak. Of course that could be because I have yet to fully understand what is going on. I don't have any bias or prejudice either way. I just observe, tweak and observe again. I'm hoping more info will be released about the "modern" f/m.

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Robert Young - retired full time developer - see my Nexus Mod Page and my GitHub Mod page

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29 minutes ago, Paraffin said:

I think he's mostly talking about the avionics, since one of the things he's interested in professionally is flight training for IFR and procedures.

Compared to the two major civilian flight sims, MSFS is lacking there, and a "step backwards" compared to what you can get out of the box with at least one of the current sims with a more functional suite of GPS models in the default product.

He's not allowing for future development by Asobo, or 3rd party payware add-ons, but there is nothing wrong in my view with reviewing a product "as is" because that's all we have right now. 

Yeah, I'm surprised this is even up to debate. Nobody is saying this is the way the sim will always be and fs2020 is a failure. The fact is IFR systems are a bit lacking. 

Let's just hope MS doesn't pull the plug on Asobo early like they did to the Aces team. I am hoping they won't because they are going to force 3rd party developers to use the Microsoft store and take a cut of every add on. So it should pay the bills. 


Tyson Rose

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1 hour ago, snwboardn said:

 I am hoping they won't because they are going to force 3rd party developers to use the Microsoft store and take a cut of every add on. So it should pay the bills. 

Doesn't this go against Robert Randazzo's past stated business philosophy?,Sounds like fake news............


Jim Driscoll, MSI Raider GE76 12UHS-607 17.3" Gaming Laptop Computer - Blue Intel Core i9 12th Gen 12900HK 1.8GHz Processor; NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3080 Ti 16GB GDDR6; 64GB DDR5-4800 RAM; Dual M2 2TB Solid State Drives.Driving a Sony KD-50X75, and KDL-48R470B @ 4k 3724x2094,MSFS 2020, 30 FPS on Ultra Settings.

Jorg/Asobo: “Weather is a core part of our simulator, and we will strive to make it as accurate as possible.”Also Jorg/Asobo: “We are going to limit the weather API to rain intensity only.”


 

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5 minutes ago, BIGSKY said:

Doesn't this go against Robert Randazzo's past stated business philosophy?,Sounds like fake news............

It seem clear that MS won't force 3rd party developers to use the Store. Example: you can buy scenery directly from Orbx and install it through the Orbx Central app.

Maybe, we should send a word of thanks to Robert for standing firm regarding this issue.

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Richard Chafey

 

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MSFS 2020, DCS

 

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16 minutes ago, BIGSKY said:

Doesn't this go against Robert Randazzo's past stated business philosophy?,Sounds like fake news............

I'd be interested in that. I don't know much about the Microsoft store, all I know is when I tried to traverse the directory where I told it to install to I had to take ownership of it first so I assumed it would be hard to change any meaningful files without Microsoft's blessing aka the Xbox/MS store. 

I couldn't even add the flight sim executable to Nvidia 3d settings because you don't have read rights to the file. 

Honestly with PMDG's anti piracy and big red X's on MFD whenever you upgrade your system I'd almost rather them just use Microsoft's piracy protection from the store. 


Tyson Rose

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3 hours ago, Donstim said:

You cannot describe the new FSX aerodynamic modeling simply be looking at the flight.model.cfg file. Have you looked at the SDK?

Really good insight. Pretty advanced stuff that Asobo has baked in for a $60 sim.

It's a little surprising that you had a company with no prior flight sim or aviation background who were able to catch up in less than 5 years to deliver a sufficiently advanced FM. I'm sure it helped that they could consult with experts and had access to aviation experts and pilots on Microsoft's team.

The old way of doing things is simply not going to work in this new sim. A lot of learning curve for people.

Edited by n4gix
Removed unnecessary long quote!

FSX | DCS | X-Plane 11 | MSFS 2020 | IL2:BoX

Favorite aircraft currently: MSFS Savage Cub

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For heaven's sake people please

QUIT QUOTING THE WHOLE DARN POST WHEN REPLYING!!!!!!!!

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Fr. Bill    

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     Avsim Board of Directors | Avsim Forums Moderator

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8 hours ago, n4gix said:

For heaven's sake people please

QUIT QUOTING THE WHOLE DARN POST WHEN REPLYING!!!!!!!!

I don't see why this is a continuing issue for you guys? I don't see anything egregious or even problematic at all.

Does Avsim have some horrendous text/data bug or something? Text takes up next to no data whatsoever. And we're in a forum for a flight simulator which constantly downloads large amounts of data. I feel like I'm missing something.

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FSX was literally the worst thing to ever come out of Microsoft when it was released. Never have I been more disappointed in a product than I was with that. It took almost 10 years before FSXSE was released before it was somewhat redeemed and then when Lockheed put out P3D4 it finally started to become usable. Even today with the fastest PC you can own I still struggle to get 20FPS in any major city area with Orbx and other addons installed at high settings and it looks half as good as a default FS2020. FS2020 is in 100x better shape than FSX was on release date and I have no doubts that in two years it will be better than P3D is now 14 years after FSX was released. Frankly, if it were me, I would be a bit embarrassed to admit I was a dev responsible for FSX...

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12 hours ago, snwboardn said:

Let's just hope MS doesn't pull the plug on Asobo early like they did to the Aces team. I am hoping they won't because they are going to force 3rd party developers to use the Microsoft store and take a cut of every add on. So it should pay the bills. 

I mean you don't need to currently I doubt that will change.  It has a very X-Plane feel to it where you drop the folder in and it just does its thing.  At least for the free mods I have gotten.  X-Plane has the same basic install system so most of my payware is like that and then in game you can register your product with a key.  That is the only bit I am not sure about in terms of MSFS but its early yet.

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13 hours ago, Donstim said:

You cannot describe the new FSX aerodynamic modeling simply be looking at the flight.model.cfg file.

It's funny how people spot some files that look similar to what they know from FSX and then jump to conclusions.

And of course it's easier to tweak the legacy model. It was comparatively basic as well. We all have been complaining about it for a decade now.

You gotta move with the times, if you don't want time to pass you by.

Edited by tweekz
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Happy with MSFS 🙂
home simming evolved

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