Icing in the Bonanza G36?

[ryanbatc 12,770]

28 minutes ago, bahnzo said:

I'm assuming this is more than just the "prop deice" we have a switch for? Or am I not seeing it somewhere in the cockpit?

I believe the real one could have boots (inflatable rubber sort of thing on the leading edge of the wing) and probably a windscreen heater (looks like a small box frame on the pilot side)

[bahnzo 47]

1 minute ago, ryanbatcund said:

I believe the real one could have boots (inflatable rubber sort of thing on the leading edge of the wing) and probably a windscreen heater (looks like a small box frame on the pilot side)

Thanks, I don't see either of these. Could be a difference between the A36 and the G36 in the sim perhaps? There's some sliding knobs in the cockpit for heating, but they are marked "Inop". 

[nrcrate 40]

1 hour ago, ryanbatcund said:

I believe the real one could have boots (inflatable rubber sort of thing on the leading edge of the wing) and probably a windscreen heater (looks like a small box frame on the pilot side)

Real world Bonanza’s as I am aware never had deice boots. There is an STC for a lot of older models, and the newer models (maybe a factory option on the G36?) for a TKS system. Effectively what that does is put contoured plates on the leading edges with million of microscopic pores that are hooked to a pump and tank. With this system, you secrete TKS fluid to both prevent ice and/or remove what has built up. Addressing the other comment above about prop deice- that usually consists of either electrically heated pads at the root end of the blades or a prop slinger for the TKS fluid.
 

In the real world, there are two categories of aircraft when it comes to ice certifications- those that are FIKI, and those that aren’t. (Flight Into Known Icing) Which is exactly as it implies. Generally a front windshield hot plate or some sort of windshield sprayer, in addition to other differences determine if an airplane is FIKI or not. If it’s not FIKI, it is NOT legal to fly into known ice and the system is just used as a safety to get you out of unforecast icing conditions should you find yourself in them.

There are a lot of internet resources out there that cover things like the different types of ice, what temperatures and conditions can cause ice, the super dangerous SLD (supercooled liquid droplets), and other type of icing issues that are beyond what most people realize (induction ice for example). You could also check out the company that owns/produces the STCs (and make the OEM products) for the TKS “weeping wing” system that could be installed on a Bonanza (and is what the Caravan has in MSFS) along with other possible airframes. Their website contains great icing information here: https://www.cav-systems.com/icing-conditions/    as well as informations about their retrofit kits here: https://www.cav-systems.com/tks/retrofit/

Edited August 28, 2020 by FDX016 - Nick

[busdriver 258]

17 hours ago, bahnzo said:

I'm assuming this is more than just the "prop deice" we have a switch for? Or am I not seeing it somewhere in the cockpit?

I can't speak to what MSFS 20 has, as I don't own it. But in my real-world Bonanza, I have a switch on my panel.

[busdriver 258]

There are no boots for the Bonanza. I have a TKS system installed. It has worked very well, but since it is fluid based, and not a "hot wing" or boot system, I can easily run out of fluid if in repeated icing conditions during a long flight. I love the system, but still keep a close eye on the WX and potential icing on my route of flight and avoid icing if at all possible.

Edited August 29, 2020 by busdriver

[Flyfaster_MTN002 412]

21 hours ago, Gridley said:

Well I hope a RW pilot will comment, but yeah, if you don't have ice protection, you don't fly into known icing conditions.

Have experiences carbeurator induction icing in clear air over the desert on a otherwise warm clear day. It is insidious stuff up high which necessitates boots, TKS, etc. Would be pretty cool to model it in the sim, but given all the other issues wouldn't hold my breath. That being said, boots or TKS would be fairly easy.

[Flyfaster_MTN002 412]

20 hours ago, ryanbatcund said:

looks like a small box frame on the pilot side)

It is called a hot plate and both the Baron and Bonanza (and seneca) use them. More modern planes like the Cirrus use TKS with a slinger ring on the prop tossing it into the air in front of the windscreen. Other planes use a spray bar for the TKS under the windscreen.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Flyfaster

[gdball 1]

Am a RW pilot for what that is worth - quite sure there are more and better than I here.

There have been icing accidents in large commercial jets - so its not just a GA consideration. Look up an accident in Laguardia where a jet was de-iced twice before takeoff and still suffered a horrible loss. It led to some changes on where, when, and with what de-icing is done. 

There is no such thing as an airplane that can shrug off any icing encounter - there are conditions that will overwhelm any system if encountered at the wrong time.  The Laguardia jet I mentioned got caught with a thing layer of ice before take off, in a "hard wing" plane without leading edge slats that was a little more sensitive to it.  Anti-icing is mean to give you a little more time to get to clear air - not stay in it. Big Jets have the thrust to get up above it, not loiter around it too long. 

Sometimes colder is actually better - I know we've all seen ice bounce of cars without sticking. A really scary term is super cooled liquid water droplets SCLD.  Its water that is technically cold enough to freeze but hasn't yet.  When you take a plane through THAT, it sticks to you like unwanted attention in a bar. 

Wings are obviously bad for the extra weight and loss of lift.  But ice on the prop reduces your thrust too.  Prop de-ice on the bonanza won't help with the wings, but keeping the prop clear means the big engine Bonanza has enough power to maybe just maybe get up to a colder layer like the jets (although not that high) or drag your word not allowed just a little farther and longer to safety.  Its meant to help you escape. Stay in ice to your peril. 

Some aircraft have a spray bar to put deice on the window. Some have a "hot plate".  But people HAVE been forced to land with no visibility except through that teeny opening side window.  Other tech might get you to the runway in an emergency, but think of having only that few inches to see through, and to the side at that. 

Although I don't play with any of it,  much of what you'd be looking for in a forecast in the safe world of a sim is how much of it you'd have to go through for how long, and whether you've got a good escape route if it goes bad.  EX: a small area or broken clouds. versus something that covers a whole state. Maybe you can stand a little for a little while. 

Prolly the best thing I can say is - unexpected weather encounters, or unexpected severe weather conditions, account for something like half of accidents in more advanced traveling machines like the Bonanza. 

 

[bahnzo 47]

All good info. 

But I had icing effects set to "visual only", so despite this, it still wanted to drop out of the sky. It's bugged.

Edited September 2, 2020 by bahnzo

[Chock 17,769]

For those who do operate one for real, you actually can get after-market pneumatic de-icing boots for a Beech Bonanza.

A number of companies including Raytheon and Iceshield, make such systems; cost about a grand per wing as far as I'm aware. In combination with other systems, and the necessary cash, you can make a Bonanza pretty capable for known icing conditions, but of course nothing is ever guaranteed to make an aeroplane immune to it and if ice forms past the boot, there's nothing they can do about that. Most airliners these days tend to use hot bleed air to keep the leading edge free of ice, but you do see boots on regional turboprops such as the ATR.

Seems to be a bit of confusion in this thread with some over de-icing and anti-icing; these are two different things.

The rigs you see at airports, typically servicing airliners, generally have two capabilities and hence two different spray nozzles up on the top of the gantry. De-icing is for the most part nothing fancier than hot water which melts the ice, and is therefore similar to when you pour warm water on your car in the morning if the windscreen is iced up.

An advantage of this hot water spray is that it doesn't gunk the ramp up with fluid residue or the aeroplane's systems. A disadvantage is that in cold temperatures, it is introducing water to the airframe, and that can potentially freeze up, although the likelihood is it would mostly have run off the wings before that could happen, as it is very hot indeed when it is sprayed, but that can make the ramp slippery if it subsequently freezes of course.

Hot water de-icing is sometimes used on airliners to heat up the fuel in a 'cold-soaked' wing. Cold soaking is when a very cold wing skin -  from having descended through freezing air which takes the wing tank fuel temperature down really low - experiences rain or humidity upon landing. This moisture then freezes on contact with the wing in spite of the ambient temperature being above freezing, courtesy of the fuel acting as a refrigerator on the wing skin.

Anti-icing is what a lot of people mistakenly call 'de-icing'; it's a yellowy-green viscous fluid which clings to surfaces. Generally speaking, it's good for up to around 45 minutes maximum when applied to an airliner in poor conditions, but a safe margin would be to not count on much past 30 minutes from spraying to TOGA.

Its slimy viscosity means it clings to surfaces for a long time. You can often see it dripping out of the drain holes on the flap canoes of airliners (especially the A320 series) literally hours after they had anti-ice fluid applied to them. A disadvantage to it is that it can make ramp surfaces slippery and if it gets sprayed on the wheels and brakes of an airliner (which you've not really supposed to do), it can adversely affect the braking capabilities on the thing to the point where it can cause delays whilst it is cleaned off.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Chock