So I've tried some of the acrobatic planes, the last one being that pretty red biplane. Holy cow are they twitchy and sensitive! At first I thought perhaps this was due to the sim being too sensitive in how it reads my flight stick, but I watched the ailerons while performing very mild banking moves with the stick, and they barely move, yet my plane goes into a snap roll. I basically have to fly with my fingertips if I want to fly normal-like. Even when I want to do things like a single snap roll, I have to be very ginger with the stick lest I end up performing 10 neck-breaking rolls instead.

So my question is, being a flight sim pilot only, is this realistic, or is there something wrong with the flight model? My brain just can't fathom that such a tiny deflection of the ailerons (which I'm looking at when I try these maneuvers) would result in such a drastic change in attitude. If real planes do behave this way, then I'm amazed anyone can fly them with precision, as I'd think the mild vibrations from the engine twitching the stick would constantly jerk the plane around.

PS - other planes like the Cessna and TBM feel fine to me.

Have you set up any sensitive on your joystick? Also imo you need to make new profiles for every aircraft you fly.

 

5 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

Have you set up any sensitive on your joystick? Also imo you need to make new profiles for every aircraft you fly.

No, but like I said, I seriously don't think it's an issue with the joystick. The movement of the ailerons track perfectly with the movement of my stick. However, the response of the airplane does not seem to track with the movement of the ailerons. But IANARP, so maybe I'm underestimating how little aileron deflection is needed to radically pitch and roll an aerobatic airplane (hence my OP).

Edited September 10, 20205 yr by Keto Ketchup

Well yes it is, because you need to add a curve/sensitive, I use 50% roll and 55% pitch. BTW everyone should do this no matter what set up you have. Mine is in sig, even my TPR have a 50% curve for rudders.

Its simple, try it and see. Or keep your way to sensitive settings.

Am trying to help you. I can lead you to water but its down to you to drink 🙂

Knock, knock, who's there.....Dr...Dr...who?

Edited September 10, 20205 yr by Nyxx

11 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

Well yes it is, because you need to add a curve/sensitive, I use 50% roll and 55% pitch. BTW everyone should do this no matter what set up you have. Mine is in sig, even my TPR have a 50% curve for rudders.

Its simple, try it and see. Or keep your way to sensitive settings.

Am trying to help you. I can lead you to water but its down to you to drink 🙂

Knock, knock, who's there.....Dr...Dr...who?

Dave what settings do you have for that fantastic neo 

27 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

Have you set up any sensitive on your joystick? Also imo you need to make new profiles for every aircraft you fly.

 

How do you create a profile for each plane?

15 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

Well yes it is, because you need to add a curve/sensitive, I use 50% roll and 55% pitch. BTW everyone should do this no matter what set up you have. Mine is in sig, even my TPR have a 50% curve for rudders.

Its simple, try it and see. Or keep your way to sensitive settings.

Am trying to help you. I can lead you to water but its down to you to drink 🙂

Knock, knock, who's there.....Dr...Dr...who?

I'm sure you're trying to help me make the sim playable, and that's great. It doesn't answer my original question, however. I'm assuming this biplane is not fly-by-wire IRL, therefore it would not have a sensitivity curve, unless such a "curve" is implemented using cams in the linkages between stick and control surfaces. If this is the case, then the sim itself should model this rather than requiring me to do some 3rd party solution magic.

So the question remains - are these planes this twitchy in real life? And I'm not just talking about the effect of moving the stick but more specifically the drastic effect of slight movements of control surfaces on the plane's changes in attitude.

Ok am out GL

/wave bye bye

Edited September 10, 20205 yr by Nyxx

24 minutes ago, Keto Ketchup said:

So my question is, being a flight sim pilot only, is this realistic, or is there something wrong with the flight model?

If you ever looked at the size of the ailerons on these airplanes you quickly understand that they are in fact rolling monsters capable of phenomenal performance. I spent some time in an Extra 300S (not enough to call myself an expert, but enough to get a feel) and the airplane in flight was very predictable and easy to keep on heading and altitude. However, if you moved the stick aggressively the airplane would react and let you know you were flying something well outside of the normal to commuter category airplane. Movement of the controls was more like the movement of a cyclic on a helicopter. Small and precise. As long as you treated the Extra with the respect she deserves she was a fun airplane to fly. 

Now a dose of reality with MSFS. No one certified the flight dynamics of any of the airplanes in the video game as meeting the objective requirements of a training device or flight simulator. Basically Asobo threw some numbers into their spaghetti monster looked at what they got out of it and when the Alpha and Beta guys complained put some of the aerodynamics from FSX back into the game. The airplanes that were in the game the longest and seen by most of the people seem to be better behaved then the airplanes they threw in at the last minute with no testing.

The other issue is you are trying to replicate the control movements and responses using a cheap set of game controllers. How do you know the stick movement of your game controller matches 100% of what you would experience in the aircraft? Most likely your controller is spring centered. In a cable driven airplane you feel the resistance of air moving over surfaces feed back into the controls. The more you deflect the controls the more resistance to movement. The faster the airplane is flying the more resistance to movement.  Thus if you setup your controls linearly in the game the resistance you feel is not a curve like you would feel in a real airplane. Even in a hydraulic assisted or fly by wire airplanes they insert this curve so the airplane feels like what the pilot would expect. So yes you do need to add a curve into your game device to better represent what a pilot would feel in flight moving a stick. 

Here is a Cap doing some rolls. Typical complete (no snap) roll in real aircraft: 4 seconds with full deflection. A lot less quick than an Extra.

 

41 minutes ago, KenG said:

Basically Asobo threw some numbers into their spaghetti monster looked at what they got out of it and when the Alpha and Beta guys complained put some of the aerodynamics from FSX back into the game.

Citation please?

41 minutes ago, KenG said:

 

Now a dose of reality with MSFS. No one certified the flight dynamics of any of the airplanes in the video game as meeting the objective requirements of a training device or flight simulator. Basically Asobo threw some numbers into their spaghetti monster looked at what they got out of it and when the Alpha and Beta guys complained put some of the aerodynamics from FSX back into the game. The airplanes that were in the game the longest and seen by most of the people seem to be better behaved then the airplanes they threw in at the last minute with no testing.

 

Imagine my shock... Not tested?

 

It's a masterpiece isn't it? 

The Pitts is designed to be aerobatic, but this does not mean it is twitchy; mere twitchiness would be a bad thing in an aeroplane designed to fly the FAI Aresti Catalogue precisely. So what matters for an aeroplane of this type, is very stable flight with the controls at neutral, but the ability to depart quickly from that with control deflections.

So what makes the Pitts a good aerobatic aeroplane, is its ability to maneuver quickly, but precisely. The physical elements which make this possible on the Pitts, are its small size and low weight (less size and weight means less inertia to overcome when instigating a maneuver and less inertia to put a stop to when you want to end that maneuver), its CoG, which is quite far aft owing to its snub nose (meaning it can quickly depart from going straight and level), its high power to weight ratio (which means it can perform vertical maneuvers with sufficient power), it's comparatively slab-sided fuselage (which means it can knife edge well), its twin near-symmetrical aerofoils (which differ on the upper and lower wings to aid inverted flight), and its comparatively large (for its size) control surfaces; including having ailerons on both wings, and elevators and a rudder which are pretty close to being half of the entire horizontal and vertical stabiliser's surface area.

If you look at cockpit videos of Pitts S2s doing aeros, you will see the pilots moving the stick rapidly and in a very precise manner, but then quickly stopping or neutralising that movement to hold it rock steady still. This makes the thing depart from straight and level quickly, but then brings it back to very stable flight near instantaneously. So no, it's not 'twitchy' but it is highly maneuverable. Watch the stick movements on a hesitation roll, and you will see the thing is very controllable and when you centralise the controls, it is suddenly flying on rails.

Your guide to doing that stuff well in an aeroplane designed and stressed for aeros, is in large part the G-meter, since this will tell you when you are loading the thing or not; put some load on that meter and expect it to move, unload the G on that meter and it should stay where it is. Don't forget the sick bag.

Incidentally, if you are not used to aeros, it's better to start the basic stuff on something like a 152A (this is designed for aeros, with a reinforced airframe, g meter, etc) with some precise loops and stuff, in the same way that when you learn to ride a horse, you don't start out on Red Rum, you get on a friendly plodder to get used to control. Aerobatics, like horse riding in many ways, is about precision and management.

Be aware that there is a reason why not everyone is a world-class aerobatic pilot, doing them well to competition standard takes a good deal of skill and even more practice. They're fun to do and if you get the chance for real I'd recommend it because you'll like it, but be prepared to to be a bit disappointed that you are not instantly brilliant at it!

Edited September 10, 20205 yr by Chock

Here's a good video. It's in 360 degrees so make sure you move it around to get a good view of his control stick. I think it pretty obvious that there is no way that, out-of-the-box, the control sensitives can be accurately set to accommodate a Pitts or Extra while also being usable for a C152 or A320.

The program linked in the Tips and Tricks forum is the best you can do for setting up individual sensitivities per aircraft. It works on-the-fly so you can change your joystick settings as easily as you change aircraft. Just create a new profile for each aircraft you want one for.

 

1 hour ago, Keto Ketchup said:

therefore it would not have a sensitivity curve, unless such a "curve" is implemented using cams in the linkages between stick and control surfaces. If this is the case, then the sim itself should model this rather than requiring me to do some 3rd party solution magic.

But you are "flying" a computer not mechanically linked controls to actual control surfaces. It is "fly by wire" simply due to the fact that  it is...you know...not real. The devs have to support a wide range of physical input devices from Xbox controllers to potentially custom full range of motion controls. Response curves are one way to do that. That being said, the sim is super twitchy and response curves are only a band aid.