8 minutes ago, Scottoest said:

Imagine my shock... another troll post.  We get it - it's a toy game for babies.

The P3D forum is thataway.

Haha, to be fair, I never found P3D to be the realism benchmark either. We had some great aircraft but I was consistently let down with everything else in the sim. As a real pilot, my opinion is MSFS is already far and beyond P3D if not for the VFR experience alone. Once we get the weather/ATC fixed and some solid 3rd party aircraft it's going to be a masterpiece.

To the OP, this sim does have some goofy tendencies "out of the box". In the real world, even a Pitts gets much more stable when you put 100+ mph of air over the control surfaces. I think there is room to improve here on the flight models. We may not see it until 3rd party. I will say the rudder control on the Pitts is fairly accurate. Takeoffs and landings are a fun little dance on the pedals.

I will caution everyone before you go "dumbing down" your controls. These are the default controls and they are the controls 3rd party aircraft are likely tested with. I would make sure you catalog your changes so you can roll them back when the time comes. It'd be a shame to jeopardize an A2A or PMDG flight model etc.  

53 minutes ago, fluffyflops said:

Imagine my shock... Not tested?

There's a difference between "not certified" and "not tested." It can be a perfectly realistic sim that was tested by real pilots of the real planes, without being certified as a flight training aid. That's good for us, because certification is expensive and I didn't feel like spending a few thousand on MSFS instead of just $120.

 

From what I've seen so far, most of the flight characteristics problems stem from the inputs being vastly oversensitive rather than problems with the flight models themselves (though admittedly I have yet to try all of the airplanes so that's not a universal statement).

 

 

Edited September 10, 20205 yr by eslader

20 minutes ago, officialtlong said:

Haha, to be fair, I never found P3D to be the realism benchmark either. We had some great aircraft but I was consistently let down with everything else in the sim. As a real pilot, my opinion is MSFS is already far and beyond P3D if not for the VFR experience alone. Once we get the weather/ATC fixed and some solid 3rd party aircraft it's going to be a masterpiece.

MSFS has a laundry list of bugs and issues that need fixing, tuning, and updating.  It's clear that it should've been in beta for a lot longer than two weeks.

Acknowledging that is a lot different than some of the peanut gallery here, for whom a quick glance at their post history in this subforum demonstrates they are just here to be sarcastic trolls.

2 hours ago, snglecoil said:

But you are "flying" a computer not mechanically linked controls to actual control surfaces. It is "fly by wire" simply due to the fact that  it is...you know...not real. The devs have to support a wide range of physical input devices from Xbox controllers to potentially custom full range of motion controls. Response curves are one way to do that. That being said, the sim is super twitchy and response curves are only a band aid.

I get what you are saying (thanks for saying it nicely). What people seem to be missing in my OP is that I'm basing my observations on the actual position of the control surfaces (in particular the ailerons) in relation to the response of the aircraft. When I'm sitting on the runway and testing how the control surfaces respond to my stick, it feels perfectly right, so applying curves on my joystick would mess this up. Also, I have no problems with other planes like the Cessna 172 and TBM 930. It's the physical "disconnect" between actual aileron position and change in attitude (aileron move an inch and the plane in question snaps into a very fast roll) that feels all wrong.

Therefore I'm much more likely to edit the flight model of this biplane to reduce its overly aggressive responsiveness to the ailerons in order to fix the problem I'm observing, rather than editing the input curves so that ailerons no longer respond to my joystick position. From what I can tell, most people are agreeing with me that this plane should not be this twitchy (which was my original question), we just disagree on the cause and the cure, not that I ever asked for a cure, LOL. My approach will also be a band aid of sorts, but it will feel more right than changing the joystick curves IMO. 🤷‍♂️

Edited September 10, 20205 yr by Keto Ketchup

That makes sense @Keto Ketchup. 👍

3 hours ago, Keto Ketchup said:

 

So my question is, being a flight sim pilot only, is this realistic, or is there something wrong with the flight model? My brain just can't fathom that such a tiny deflection of the ailerons (which I'm looking at when I try these maneuvers) would result in such a drastic change in attitude. If real planes do behave this way, then I'm amazed anyone can fly them with precision, as I'd think the mild vibrations from the engine twitching the stick would constantly jerk the plane around.

 

Ok Keto, I will give you my perspective to help you understand. Hopefully my info can help you get an idea of what the controls are like real world. I have flown light, medium and heavy aircraft, but my time is largely jets with very little prop/turbo prop time. I've flown Cessnas and Pipers so lets talk about those for a moment. When you are sitting on the ground and moving the controls, they move very easily. Once you get moving and get in the air, you notice that the yoke is more rigid. When you displace the controls outside, you are pushing them against the airstream. You will feel the load, gust and bumps along the way. You will also notice that there is a slight delay of aircraft movement from your input. Like that one law says, a body at rest tends to stay at rest until acted upon by an outside force. Well, you are in the inside. I think they call it inertia....maybe control inertia..., but anyways. You will also notice in the pitch regime, you "will" have to trim. Going fast, you may get more response to input, going slow, the controls may start to feel mushy. Now, lets talk about the heavier aircraft.

In larger aircraft, those flight controls are bigger with more surface area. This means that more force is required to displace them. It's like driving a big Mack truck with no power steering. So, they have to add hydraulics and boosted controls. The problem with hydro controls is that you can no longer feel the air load on them. With 3000PSI available, how would you know how much input to give? Welp, now you run the risk of over controlling the aircraft or even over stressing it. So they add artificial feel systems and control spring cartridges. Feel systems will adjust a simulated load on the controls in the pitch/yaw regime based on speed. The spring cartridges and such will make the roll axis stiff. You also have roll assist spoilers and sometimes inboard and outboard ailerons to ensure you desirable roll rates through out the flight regime. Keep in mind that all of these systems are designed to maintain control authority in extremes such as failed hydro, jammed controls, miss trims and failed engines. In most cases, it ain't pretty and you might need to find a long runway with no winds, but it's doable.

Now, how does this play out in your question. Well, the controls are rigid for the most part and take some input during maneuvers. Designers knew that pilots will need to have the ability to fly with precision and fine tuned fashion. The controls are sensitive, but the yoke is rigid and takes some effort to displace. I can ham fist it and have you raise an eyebrow in the back of my jet. But I can add in small inputs and ease the plane into roll and pitch changes while you barely notice it. You can have anywhere from 10 to 40 pounds of force on the yoke for displacement depending on what you are doing. This makes it easy to precision fly. For example, in the KC10, I could rest my fore arms on the armrest and place my fingertips on the yoke. I can use my wrists to make small roll and pitch inputs to move the jet smoothly left and right or up and down in the contact position taking on gas behind a tanker. I don't need to move that much or else I will be all over the place making people sick, tiring out my arms and falling off the boom. I got so good at it that I could control fore and aft movement without touching the throttles. I move up in the envelope and streamline the formation and my jet naturally starts moving forward towards the tanker. I move down a little to drag it up and my jet slowly starts moving aft of the tanker. You got to love aerodynamics. But, In the pattern turning base, I am using a lot more input at 180kts turning base to get her to roll and descend. You will also have to trim a lot because there are a lot of dynamics going on in the pitch axis as speed and power changes are made. Even in fly by wire aircraft you require more input. Outside of the side stick, there are no springs to give you that load feel. You get software that mimics those conventional things. Bottom line, it's hard to code a sim that give you that feel across every control setup each user has. I fell in love with my PFC yoke because it's heavy and rigid feel. It then makes it easier to tune my curves/axis or fiddle with the air file till it matches what it should be.

I agree, the controls here are a bit twitchy and with a rubber band feel to them. In the real world, that rudder will work you out. During heavy crosswinds, wing low method, your leg is burning by the time you are on roll out. During recurrent sims, you are hurting during those engine out approaches to a go around. It forces you to use rudder trim and hope you remember to take it out on short final. Hopefully we find those files for tweaking. I even notice weirdness during rotation. It's like there are two different flight models. One on the ground and one right as you lift off. Suddenly there is a change to your rotation behavior as you lift off.

 

Rick     

On 9/10/2020 at 6:33 AM, Keto Ketchup said:

So I've tried some of the acrobatic planes, the last one being that pretty red biplane. Holy cow are they twitchy and sensitive!

Aerobatic aircraft are inherently 'twitchy' in order to achieve the roll rates etc. They are inherently 'unstable' basically and require a lot of skill to hand fly...

Have not had a chance to try any in the sim yet but in the real world HTH.

Edited September 11, 20205 yr by n4gix
Removed unnecessary long quote!

2 hours ago, Flyfaster said:

Aerobatic aircraft are inherently 'twitchy' in order to achieve the roll rates etc. They are inherently 'unstable' basically and require a lot of skill to hand fly...

Have not had a chance to try any in the sim yet but in the real world HTH.

Sorry to differ, but aerobatic aircraft are not inherently unstable. The just have larger than normal control surfaces and are built to withstand high G. In non aerobatic flying they are as stable and flyable as almost anything else, although tail dragger types require more skill when taking off and landing.

15 hours ago, G550flyer said:

Suddenly there is a change to your rotation behavior as you lift off.

I noticed that too. I was wondering if maybe the tire friction was somehow being simulated with the aerodynamic model, which might explain why the rotation changes as the friction component "turns off."

 

I'm with Keto here ...

The technical "answers" being given here are talking past Keto's question, and NOT addressing his fundamental question. 

A plane moves ONLY in proportion to how its control surfaces have been moved. 

How much force that may require at different speeds may be technically interesting, but is an additional observation.  And irrelevant to addressing Keto's question!

If the surfaces move SLIGHTLY, then the expected change in aircraft orientation is also expected to be only SLIGHT(Keto's point).  This, no matter what speed the aircraft is flying at.

So ... if you want to barrel roll the aircraft fast, you would expect that the ailerons would have to be moved to MAXIMUM position as rapidly as possible.

How much force that requires on the stick for THAT aircraft at THAT speed is irrelevant! 

The dynamism of the "Flight Model" of an aircraft is a function PURELY of the ACTUAL position of the ailerons and rudder; the speed with which these are changed; and the unique physical characteristics of the particular aircraft. 

Violent maneuvers must require fast AND extreme positions of the control surfaces (Keto's point).

From the pilot's point of view in this simulator, the "Response Curve" for a joystick controller, is just a "Black Box" adjustment algorithm that is inserted between the pilot and the plane - to allow the pilot to dictate the response from the plane that suits his personal tastes for hand control.

It has got nothing to do with determining the inherent flight model of the aircraft.

So, for example, one may prefer that around the "neutral position", you may want to allow quite large stick movements, that produce only a little change in control-surface orientation.  But that once you move the stick into further deviation from neutral, then only will the control-surface response get progressively more aggressive.

So back to Keto's question ... 

Doesn't matter how Keto's stick is currently set up. If, when he looks out the cockpit, and he observes he's moving the control surfaces ONLY slightly, YET the aircraft is nevertheless responding swiftly AND massively to this SLIGHT input, then it suggests that there is a problem with the basic programming of the Flight Model of THAT plane.

I've either got this explanation 100% right ...

Or I'm horribly wrong ...

In which case, I'll take my medicine!

🤣🤢

Edited September 11, 20205 yr by Jonnoxx

33 minutes ago, Jonnoxx said:

I've either got this explanation 100% right ...

Or I'm horribly wrong ...

In which case, I'll take my medicine!

You are precisely correct sir!

I would also point out that in every aircraft.cfg file there is a line indicating the flight dynamics WIP status. There are four possible values; -1, 0, 1, 2...

with -1 meaning "not done at all", 0 meaning "first pass" up through 2 meaning "complete/done". Not a single one of the 30 aircraft in Premium Deluxe are noted as "2."

That should inform all of us of how Asobo views their status!

31 minutes ago, Jonnoxx said:

Doesn't matter how Keto's stick is currently set up. If, when he looks out the cockpit, and he observes he's moving the control surfaces ONLY slightly, YET the aircraft is nevertheless responding swiftly AND massively to this SLIGHT input, then it suggests that there is a problem with the basic programming of the Flight Model of THAT plane.

I've either got this explanation 100% right ...

Or I'm horribly wrong ...

You are 99% right. The only spanner in the works is that animations of control surfaces in sims do not always reflect precisely the input. However if an aircraft rolls so ridiculously quickly with a small input, no matter what the control curves are (unless they are ludicrously set to respond say 95% for the first tiny movement), there is indeed something wrong with the flight model.

Be prepared for plenty of contrary views though, as there is a contingent that really does believe everything can be solved by tweaking control set ups, despite your extremely logical and intelligent assessment, which is spot on.

17 hours ago, G550flyer said:

 

I agree, the controls here are a bit twitchy and with a rubber band feel to them. In the real world, that rudder will work you out. During heavy crosswinds, wing low method, your leg is burning by the time you are on roll out. During recurrent sims, you are hurting during those engine out approaches to a go around. It forces you to use rudder trim and hope you remember to take it out on short final. Hopefully we find those files for tweaking. I even notice weirdness during rotation. It's like there are two different flight models. One on the ground and one right as you lift off. Suddenly there is a change to your rotation behavior as you lift off.

 

Rick     

You forgot to mention that real rudder and yoke has pounds of pressure associated with physical sensory feedback. Also in light airplane you also have verity of cable tension that can affect feel of controls greatly! While we are trying to contemplate control reaction in sim we have to understand that we are limited by range of motion of our peripherals and spring tension they come with. There is no way sim controls will ever feel exactly like real aircraft!   Yes people can tweak to simulate this feeling but it's based on personal exeperience.

May be because I was simmer way before I got my first pilot certificate, so I understand sim limitation and compensate lack or real feedback  with a light touch. In other words, I adopt, calibrate and transform my sensory respond to sim. And therefore, none of airplanes in the sim feel twitchy to me.  And it works same way in DCS, IL2, XP11 and in MSFS. But it just me and it can't work for everyone  

On 9/10/2020 at 10:02 AM, officialtlong said:

I will caution everyone before you go "dumbing down" your controls. These are the default controls and they are the controls 3rd party aircraft are likely tested with. I would make sure you catalog your changes so you can roll them back when the time comes. It'd be a shame to jeopardize an A2A or PMDG flight model etc.  

Not so...

There is a reason why XP and DCS have very advanced user curve features for the their controls....because sensitivity matters...

If you want to jump into a random plane....with a random joystick and expect everything to work for you...with no fine tuning...good luck with that.

Its about fine tuning the response to be more realistic. I have not yet flown the aircraft referenced by the OP (and I recognize that he is referring to control surface deflections as opposed to joystick throw)...but I have not had a "twitchy" plane in MSFS, XP, or DCS after I adjusted the sensitivity for the controls.

Edited September 11, 20205 yr by FlyBaby

25 minutes ago, FlyBaby said:

Not so...

There is a reason why XP and DCS have very advanced user curve features for the their controls....because sensitivity matters...

If you want to jump into a random plane....with a random joystick and expect everything to work for you...with no fine tuning...good luck with that.

Its about fine tuning the response to be more realistic. I have not yet flown the aircraft referenced by the OP (and I recognize that he is referring to control surface deflections as opposed to joystick throw)...but I have not had a "twitchy" plane in MSFS, XP, or DCS after I adjusted the sensitivity for the controls.

Yes control setups are important. But the whole point of the OP's subject goes way beyond that. For example the default FS2020 Extra and Cap, at FULL DEFLECTION (so it does not matter what you control setup is - full deflection IS full deflection) aileron demostrate 3x to 4x the rapidity of roll speed compared to the real aircraft (PLEASE look at the video link provided above!!!!). The Extra (which I have flown several times) is capable of 400 degrees roll per second, but that is with almost instant, two handed, agressive, input. In reality the figure is more like a complete roll in one second, unless you are doing a snap roll.

Fs2020 is showing FOUR TIMES the realistic roll rate in best possible conditions. FOUR TIMES! 30% out is rather extreme. But 400% too fast is very extreme. This has NOTHING whatever to do with control setups, but I fear I'm going to go blue in the face trying to get this across.

Edited September 11, 20205 yr by robert young