Community A320 mod team's plea for support

[Scottoest 1,561]

On 9/18/2020 at 1:07 PM, n4gix said:

There have been more than a few who've responded with well-considered and cogent replies.

The simply fact is that only a tiny handful of the GA are approaching a 'completed' status. None of the non-GA are anywhere near that but are still at the '1st pass' stage.

It is pretty much guaranteed that as Asobo continue to refine those aircraft to what they consider 'completed' status that every update will break some things.

It's also just a reality of patches that make big alterations to an already-complex codebase, unless you want them to spend months QA testing every patch, instead of a week or two.

They'll probably eventually get to a point where they re-open Insider applications for future updates to MSFS (lots of Microsoft games these days have insider testing programs for updates), but right now I suspect their goal is more on getting big updates out as quickly as reasonably possible - both in response to the biggest issues, and to finish building out stuff like the airliners, that were pretty clearly forced out the door before they were ready.

Once they've caught up on that stuff, you can breathe and slow down the updates a bit.

[ThrottleUp 617]

2 hours ago, pstrub said:

Careful though, this doesn't apply to the folder of the Deluxe and Premium content, they're still encrypted. However, the base files (launcher screen, downloader, etc) are located in your Steam folder, just like any other Steam game. This approx 1GB launcher the only part where Steam and Xbox store versions differ. The whole other content is handled and downloaded through MSFS, therefore it's exactly the same. When I switched from the EUR 1,- GamePass version to a bought Steam version, I didn't have to re-download any of the 90GB folder, just had to rename the folder inside the "Official" folder from sth like "Xbox" (not exactly sure anymore) to "Steam". 

Anyway, I still prefer the Steam version, the few times I had to interact with the MS Store I used many swear words, every time. From my personal experience I'd say it's counter-intuitive, annoying, and prone to come up with weird error messages... 

Thank you for this great info, I had no idea. I still haven't decided which edition to go for but the Standard one is looking very tempting now that you can have access to all the files. I find the MS store thing very badly implemented and messy. All my games are on Steam (including good ol FSX) and so its most tidy and streamlined option for me. Will be another 7 or 9 months before I get it and maybe the other editions will open up to tweaking. Why did they lock down those two editions I wonder, they didnt want people tweaking the Dreamliner and other additional planes? 

[virtuali 4,421]

2 minutes ago, duckbilled said:

I'm more concerned about PMDG, Navigraph, GSX, high quality scenery, AI and perhaps, Active Sky

Why are you concerned ? PMDG was one of the first to openly support MSFS, Navigraph for MSFS is already in Beta and both GSX, ActiveSky and AI products like UT Live should be reasonably easy to convert. once the missing Simconnect features will come back.

About missing Simconnect features ( hundreds of add-ons depends on Simconnect ), I'm not referring to new things that we would like to have, or things that only P3D has ( P3D Simconnect is more powerful than FSX's ). I'm referring to core functions calls that has been there in FSX since 2007, and are still present in the current MSFS SDK, which right now simply don't do anything. This is usually an indication they plan to add them back so, in the meantime, they put a placeholder that doesn't do anything, a "stub", so the sim won't crash if somebody use them, but nothing will happen.

Yes, it will take some time but, as I've said already once: FSX came out in October 2006, SP1 came out after 7 months and SP2 after another 7 months! Was FSX *really* usable before Acceleration or SP2 ? It was a DISASTER of a release, lots of users stayed with FS9 for years, even the name "Acceleration" used by Microsoft to name the expansion sounded like an inside joke...

MSFS has been out only 1 month, and it already got two patches, the latest one being fairly substantial.

Other dates that might be interesting to put things in perspective:

- PMDG released their first FSX product ( the 747 ) in October 2007. That is a FULL YEAR after FSX came out.

- PMDG released their 2nd FSX product ( the 737 NGX ) in 2011. That is 5 YEARS after FSX came out. 

- GSX came out early 2012. That's 5.5 YEARS after FSX came out.

- FS Labs A320 came in 2016, That's 10 YEARS after FSX came out.

I think MSFS rollouts will likely be faster, and I'm also sure Asobo knows very well that, for the sim to last years ( and generate profits for the MS Marketplace ), the SDK issues MUST be fixed.

[pstrub 998]

9 minutes ago, ThrottleUp said:

Thank you for this great info, I had no idea. I still haven't decided which edition to go for but the Standard one is looking very tempting now that you can have access to all the files. I find the MS store thing very badly implemented and messy. All my games are on Steam (including good ol FSX) and so its most tidy and streamlined option for me. Will be another 7 or 9 months before I get it and maybe the other editions will open up to tweaking. Why did they lock down those two editions I wonder, they didnt want people tweaking the Dreamliner and other additional planes? 

Ah, so you still have quite some time to take the decision. I'm really enjoying it, although I can see why others have some problems with it. I also have most games on Steam, and what's available on GOG, other stores only when I can't avoid them. And yeah, MS store has been the messiest of all.

Locking the folder contents of the premium/deluxe aircraft isn't primarily meant to prevent tweaking, it's a piracy protection. Without it, you could simply copy the folders from a Premium Deluxe edition to the base edition. 

Edited September 20, 2020 by pstrub

[ThrottleUp 617]

44 minutes ago, pstrub said:

Locking the folder contents of the premium/deluxe aircraft isn't primarily meant to prevent tweaking, it's a piracy protection. Without it, you could simply copy the folders from a Premium Deluxe edition to the base edition. 

Of course, *doh* to me! Why didn't I realize that, makes sense now! 

Yes I want to replace this 12yr old PC (see my sig). My primary sim is X-Plane11 (which I'll always keep) but the computer struggles even with that to the extent that to get decent FPS I cannot fly over urban areas at all. So if it struggles with XP11 then MSFS will be a PowerPoint presentation with all the satellite imagery being streamed in + autogen on top etc. Just waiting to see what the Ryzen 4000 series look like to decide on the CPU (AMD vs Intel).

Edited September 20, 2020 by ThrottleUp

[duckbilled 310]

1 hour ago, virtuali said:

Why are you concerned ? PMDG was one of the first to openly support MSFS, Navigraph for MSFS is already in Beta and both GSX, ActiveSky and AI products like UT Live should be reasonably easy to convert. once the missing Simconnect features will come back.

I've gotten the impression that developers were a bit shocked by the lack of detail in the SDK. That's just the impression I have been getting, and that's what really matters - it is an optics thing, and it is up to MS/AS to manage perception. I hope I am wrong.

If they were more transparent with how things were happening with developers, I don't think I'd have that impression. For example, everything in your posts should be posted by the MS/AS team. We should be seeing YouTube videos with developers and Asobo sitting side by side talking about the progress they are making in regards to implementing complex add ons and high quality scenery.

I don't really care about FSX, because I don't think anyone (at least not me) thought MS, with FSX, would have a different vision than FS9 for 3rd party add ons. MSFS is a different animal. Files are more locked down than they were in the past, the SDK isn't up to snuff (according to developers), it is being developed for XBox... This one is different, and while they make be talking the talk and throwing developers bones here and there, the lack of transparency on this issue it was leaves me slightly in doubt. You may find support drying up in the future if they come to tho conclusion that the real cash is in the gaming community and not the enthusiast community. You aren't going to be able to do much if they don't give you the keys to the store, and I'm trying to make sure that doesn't happen - for you benefit, my benefit and the community's benefit.

I fully understand that it will take time for things to be released. Time isn't the issue. The issue is whether they will ever be released. More transparency will ensure that the enthusiast community is confident that this is the sim of the future (and it will drive sales of add ons that have already been released). If making that clear isn't a priority for MS/AS, maybe the enthusiast community isn't the priority.

 

[pstrub 998]

1 hour ago, ThrottleUp said:

Of course, *doh* to me! Why didn't I realize that, makes sense now! 

Yes I want to replace this 12yr old PC (see my sig). My primary sim is X-Plane11 (which I'll always keep) but the computer struggles even with that to the extent that to get decent FPS I cannot fly over urban areas at all. So if it struggles with XP11 then MSFS will be a PowerPoint presentation with all the satellite imagery being streamed in + autogen on top etc. Just waiting to see what the Ryzen 4000 series look like to decide on the CPU (AMD vs Intel).

I upgraded my PC in March, but I've kept using the old graphics card till the whole lineup from AMD and Nvidia is available in October/November... That was my plan all along, but now MSFS was released earlier than anticipated - originally everyone was expecting a launch around November this year, MS took us by surprise... 

[Scottoest 1,561]

2 hours ago, duckbilled said:

I've gotten the impression that developers were a bit shocked by the lack of detail in the SDK. That's just the impression I have been getting, and that's what really matters - it is an optics thing, and it is up to MS/AS to manage perception. I hope I am wrong.

My impression (from reading the statements put out by Aerosoft, OrbX, PMDG and others leading up to release), was more that they knew the SDK was woefully incomplete for a lot of add-ons, but that they'd been in a lot of contact with Asobo, who were reassuring them it was coming - but they didn't know exactly when.

This was enough for a company like PMDG to start shifting their roadmap to focus on MSFS, and begin completing the tasks they could do (such as modeling), while they wait for the SDK to catch up.

Some of the smaller third-parties (like the FlyByWire folks) have sounded more frustrated, but I also wouldn't be suprised if that's because they haven't had the same level of communication with Asobo.  But then you listen to Umberto, who clearly has talked to them extensively, and he seems mostly unconcerned and confident that it's all coming.

[rtodepart 761]

21 minutes ago, Scottoest said:

Some of the smaller third-parties (like the FlyByWire folks) have sounded more frustrated, but I also wouldn't be suprised if that's because they haven't had the same level of communication with Asobo

This is exactly my take on this situation after seeing some of stuff they wrote looks to me like its only making that communication even harder . 

[ChaoticBeauty 6,692]

4 hours ago, ThrottleUp said:

So if it struggles with XP11 then MSFS will be a PowerPoint presentation with all the satellite imagery being streamed in + autogen on top etc.

I would still recommend giving it a try. My CPU is slightly weaker than yours and it's doing just fine at lower settings. I'm getting I/O stutters in dense areas but that's because of my weak memory set-up, the CPU isn't getting stressed at all.

[Scottoest 1,561]

4 hours ago, ThrottleUp said:

Of course, *doh* to me! Why didn't I realize that, makes sense now! 

Yes I want to replace this 12yr old PC (see my sig). My primary sim is X-Plane11 (which I'll always keep) but the computer struggles even with that to the extent that to get decent FPS I cannot fly over urban areas at all. So if it struggles with XP11 then MSFS will be a PowerPoint presentation with all the satellite imagery being streamed in + autogen on top etc. Just waiting to see what the Ryzen 4000 series look like to decide on the CPU (AMD vs Intel).

Get the $1 Game Pass trial and give it a try - you may be surprised.

A big part of why sims like XP run poorly relative to what it's rendering on-screen, is because they are so larded up with poorly integrated and inefficient add-ons on top of the base code.  MSFS has the "eye candy" fundamentally integrated into it, and optimized with it in mind.

It's not going to be magic, but you could well hit medium settings or something.

Edited September 20, 2020 by Scottoest

[ThrottleUp 617]

6 hours ago, ChaoticBeauty said:

I would still recommend giving it a try. My CPU is slightly weaker than yours and it's doing just fine at lower settings. I'm getting I/O stutters in dense areas but that's because of my weak memory set-up, the CPU isn't getting stressed at all.

Im amazed that theres anyone on here with a processor weaker than mine! Which one do you have? Interesting what you said about CPU load not being much. 

 

6 hours ago, Scottoest said:

Get the $1 Game Pass trial and give it a try - you may be surprised.

A big part of why sims like XP run poorly relative to what it's rendering on-screen, is because they are so larded up with poorly integrated and inefficient add-ons on top of the base code.  MSFS has the "eye candy" fundamentally integrated into it, and optimized with it in mind.

It's not going to be magic, but you could well hit medium settings or something.

Hmmm that is something I can consider, will have a think! With X-Plane 11 I can get 45-55 FPS out over the Amazon jungle. But over Singapore with all world objects maxed it can be 5FPS 😅

I do wish MSFS had a free timed demo limited to a small area like Laminar did. But theres the $1 game pass at least.

[ChaoticBeauty 6,692]

15 hours ago, ThrottleUp said:

Im amazed that theres anyone on here with a processor weaker than mine! Which one do you have? Interesting what you said about CPU load not being much.

It's a 6-core Phenom II. At the lowest settings it can do 40+ FPS when the GPU is not a factor (by reducing the resolution heavily). Yours should do better assuming you have HyperThreading enabled. I would recommend the Xbox Game Pass route too, while the $1 offer still stands (it's still in effect despite being out of beta, but you never know when it might be removed).

[cwburnett 1,809]

Just a quick note for those of you that are concerned with the issue of this topic and trying to get a little collaboration and cooperation going, I'd also ask that you consider upvoting this developer question/issue: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/when-will-the-navblue-partnership-be-effective-and-we-will-get-current-navdata-what-about-the-charts-services/281225

Part and parcel to any well developed IFR-capable aircraft like the A320 (or CJ4 😉) is access to a good and complete navigation database. While we've already started working on using Navigraph data for our CJ4 FMS and are exploring the same for our G1000 mod, we would much prefer to NOT require users to have a Navigraph sub to have full functionality, especially since this was one of the touted features of the new sim.

I've detailed our concerns and made some suggestions for how Asobo might easily accomplish this, so if the lack of complete nav data, procedures, etc in the sim concerns you, please consider upvoting this as well as the originally linked issue, which we're also strong supporters of and have upvoted.

Thanks!