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Virtual-Chris

Does MSFS do anything really well?

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16 hours ago, Virtual-Chris said:

It seems if you want a realistic (or even working) experience you need a heavily modified plane, add-on airports, add-on scenery, add-on weather generator, add-on ATC, 3rd party flight planning, and 3rd party log book. 

Are you sure you are not talking about FSX Steam Edition?

Just for giggles, I reinstalled FS9 and I fired up FSX Steam Edition, both out of the box.  What I found was astonishing.  FS9, which I had considered to be the pinnacle of Flight Simulator was nearly unplayable.  The blurries were in full force, the panels were low resolution and unconvincing.  The weather effects, while great at the time were cartoonish.  FSX, is better, but it really didn't push state of the art for me.  We still have "flattened" airports, unconvincing weather, and on top of that, some water effects which often went from good to horrid due to some questionable color choices.  

FS2020 recreates the real world in a way that no other sim previously has done, which is why you see even "non simmers" standing up and taking notice.  For the first time, I could recognize where I was based on street layout and building placement.  For the first time, I actually experienced fear when flying amongst massive clouds that dwarfed my AC.  The cockpits are nearly photorealistic in their presentation.  I see reflections of my instruments in my windshield, and for the first time, an accurate representation of speed, especially at low altitudes.  

I recently shot two approaches on FS9 and FSX and at 90 knots, it felt like 30.  The sim was running at 60FPS and appeared to be running in mud.  It wasn't slow, performance wise, but slow in it's representation of speed.  FS2020 doesn't have that problem.  

Historically, the strength of MSFS was the ability to alter the product through the use of add-ons.  It was built into the DNA of the product.  And now you use that functionality as a weapon against the product itself.

Let's see.  For $60.00, you get an incredible weather engine, 30,000+ airports, 400 areas represented in photogrammetric detail,  Satellite imagery of the entire planet, and and 20 planes.  And somehow that's "not enough".

But PMDG can offer one plane in fantastic detail for 1.5x that cost and that's more than ok.

Global coverage, access to 2 Petabytes of scenery.  Free global updates of scenery areas all for $60.00.  Perhaps you can't see the forest for all the trees.  

I suggest you load up FSX or FS9 and see what 60 bucks bought you a decade and a half ago  Then come back and answer your somewhat passive aggressive inquiry.

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I do wonder if some people are so accustomed to doing things a certain way, either in real life, or in other sims, that they have major problems adapting to anything different.

I started thinking that towards the end of the beta, when it became apparent (the tone of the beta forum changed markedly) that more Avsim-type users were arriving, and the volume of often quite bitter complaints rose to a roar.

Many things being brought up, such as the UI being to gamey, the autopilot being incorrect about this and that... on and on and on, the forum quickly became so negative that to this day I no longer visit it except as a database of answers, and I avoid the threads.

Throughout, I see the resistance to simply working with what we have, making people unhappy to the point where some claim the sim is either unusable or (gasp!) is not a sim at all, but an arcade game.

When I see this level of hyperbole, usual accompanied by lots of exclamation points, I do a cursory read to see if the OP is actually asking for help, or simply whining. If the latter, it quickly becomes an ignore thread.

Meanwhile, I myself have been searching the web on how this particular sim currently operates: looking at the many tutorials of how to get what I need to accomplish done. Thus I don't complain about the autopilot being "unusable" because it behaves differently than expected. Instead, I find out how to successfully complete a flight using it as it is, for now.

I may not get points for "realism" but I do seem to be a lot happier with my purchase.....

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3 minutes ago, HiFlyer said:

 

I started thinking that towards the end of the beta, when it became apparent (the tone of the beta forum changed markedly) that more Avsim-type users were arriving, and the volume of often quite bitter complaints rose to a roar.

Many things being brought up, such as the UI being to gamey, the autopilot being incorrect about this and that... on and on and on, the forum quickly became so negative that to this day I no longer visit it except as a database of answers, and I avoid the threads.

Do not discount the (probably unfounded and absolutely never to be admitted) fear that MSFS will some how close down or take away from the sims they have been playing for years.

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4 minutes ago, HiFlyer said:

I do wonder if some people are so accustomed to doing things a certain way, either in real life, or in other sims, that they have major problems adapting to anything different.

I started thinking that towards the end of the beta, when it became apparent (the tone of the beta forum changed markedly) that more Avsim-type users were arriving, and the volume of often quite bitter complaints rose to a roar.

Many things being brought up, such as the UI being to gamey, the autopilot being incorrect about this and that... on and on and on, the forum quickly became so negative that to this day I no longer visit it except as a database of answers, and I avoid the threads.

Throughout, I see the resistance to simply working with what we have, making people unhappy to the point where some claim the sim is either unusable or (gasp!) is not a sim at all, but an arcade game.

When I see this level of hyperbole, usual accompanied by lots of exclamation points, I do a cursory read to see if the OP is actually asking for help, or simply whining. If the latter, it quickly becomes an ignore thread.

Meanwhile, I myself have been searching the web on how this particular sim currently operates: looking at the many tutorials of how to get what I need to accomplish done. Thus I don't complain about the autopilot being "unusable" because it behaves differently than expected. Instead, I find out how to successfully complete a flight using it as it is, for now.

I may not get points for "realism" but I do seem to be a lot happier with my purchase.....

We can close this thread now, you said it all! thanks!

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15 hours ago, pjs37 said:

I don't recall Asobo or MS implying we will never need mods ever again.  Maybe the community believed it from the videos but given how much time they focused on working with 3PD I don't think they did

Unfortunately that's correct. MS/Asobo never said we wouldn't need to mod or buy third party addons, and tbh they said the exact opposite of that. but many people including me erroneously thought (or hyped ourselves up) of lots of weird things. 

Example: I actually said on FSElite and other places such as various discord servers that Azure will visually scan the inside and outside of an aircraft and auto-magically create the visual model of an aircraft. Then Azure AI will read the manufacturer documentations of the aircraft and create the system simulations for the aircraft, all with little to no human intervention, which will cause the death of PMDG and FSLabs.

Believe it or not. I said all these. When someone laughed at me, I pointed them to the Azure AI website.

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9 minutes ago, EvidencePlz said:

Unfortunately that's correct. MS/Asobo never said we wouldn't need to mod or buy third party addons, and tbh they said the exact opposite of that. but many people including me erroneously thought (or hyped ourselves up) of lots of weird things. 

Example: I actually said on FSElite and other places such as various discord servers that Azure will visually scan the inside and outside of an aircraft and auto-magically create the visual model of an aircraft. Then Azure AI will read the manufacturer documentations of the aircraft and create the system simulations for the aircraft, all with little to no human intervention, which will cause the death of PMDG and FSLabs.

Believe it or not. I said all these. When someone laughed at me, I pointed them to the Azure AI website.

AI expert here. That will eventually be possible. Just not yet.

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At first release i was disappointed. For me the included aircraft were almost unflyable, real world weather was non existent, interface slow.......that said visuals were excellent.  Today weather has significantly improved, some included aircraft are getting improvements by users (A320 & CJ4), add on pay ware scenery is very good on top of an already great scenery base.....I.E. FSDreamteam Key West is superb. 

A few weeks ago i had decided to park MSFS  till a little more refinement came along. Yesterday i did a flight from Miami (add on scenery) to key West and it was a truly nice way to spend a little time doing a short flight. I'm impressed how quick MS seems to be improving this sim. Needs some really good add on pay ware aircraft. My main sim is XP11 these days but I keep visiting MSFS2020 and am pleasantly surprised each time I visit.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, jabloomf1230 said:

I doubt that this decline has much to do with a faulty autopilot or other bugs. You are just seeing a normal dropoff in casual users as they grow bored with playing the game. What would real disturbing is if the Steam numbers fall to the same level as those for XP11. I doubt that will happen as there is so much DLC available for MSFS that users will continue to give the game another look.

But if MS can't graduate a enough casual users into the serious category, the numbers will continue to decline. I'm convinced that if VR is a success in MSFS, Ms has nothing to worry about long term.

Actually you might be right. If you look at the Steam forum probably the hottest topic at present is the one complaining about the lack of crash realism (though in truth I would have thought a vague thump and everything going black is exactly what you would experience :blink:). The casual gamer element will fade away and leave a core behind as I guess has happened with other flight sims over the years. As regards DLC well the key there will be getting a greater variety of aircraft in there, passenger jets, military aircraft and helicopters. Needn't be study level but eventually even I will yearn to fly something other than the A320 (even with the delightful mod) or less than sterling 747.

Edited by Elvensmith

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A combat DLC would bring some of those casual users back.

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15 hours ago, Virtual-Chris said:

So I'm not trolling....

For someone who is not trolling, you're manifesting some real world-class trolling posts.  A few examples:

"Does Microsoft or Asobo do anything really well?"   So rediculous as to not warrant any reply!

"I’m feeling a bit negative at the moment"    A classic troll comment designed to downplay the real bait, which is nealry 100% negative, so as to give the appearance of a balanced actual opinion.

"...it could be because of all the mods and add-ons I need to pile on this Sim to get any sense of realism..."   one look at the extensive atmosopherics, satellite photoreal and photogrammetry, and this statement is laughably ludicrous--you're world-class because clearly you teased enough people to respond, myself included, to warrant this recognition.

"Nothing is great (well except maybe the lighting), the scenery is good at high altitude but falls apart as soon as you get closer and many landmarks are missing, and mountain faces look horribly blurry and lacking detail"  here you go, complements of Steve:  

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/586658-does-msfs-do-anything-really-well/?do=findComment&comment=4371905This is a

"most airports look terrible unless they are hand-crafted"    This is a personal favorite having taken off and landed in some of the most remote, simple airports all over the US and a few in Germany as well.  Shocked at just how good they are, stock. 

 

You do get the prize for numbers of reasonable responses, and therein is more evidence of skilled, world-class trolling.  Good job!

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1 hour ago, Noel said:

For someone who is not trolling, you're manifesting some real world-class trolling posts.  A few examples:

"Does Microsoft or Asobo do anything really well?"   So rediculous as to not warrant any reply!

"I’m feeling a bit negative at the moment"    A classic troll comment designed to downplay the real bait, which is nealry 100% negative, so as to give the appearance of a balanced actual opinion.

"...it could be because of all the mods and add-ons I need to pile on this Sim to get any sense of realism..."   one look at the extensive atmosopherics, satellite photoreal and photogrammetry, and this statement is laughably ludicrous--you're world-class because clearly you teased enough people to respond, myself included, to warrant this recognition.

"Nothing is great (well except maybe the lighting), the scenery is good at high altitude but falls apart as soon as you get closer and many landmarks are missing, and mountain faces look horribly blurry and lacking detail"  here you go, complements of Steve:  

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/586658-does-msfs-do-anything-really-well/?do=findComment&comment=4371905This is a

"most airports look terrible unless they are hand-crafted"    This is a personal favorite having taken off and landed in some of the most remote, simple airports all over the US and a few in Germany as well.  Shocked at just how good they are, stock. 

 

You do get the prize for numbers of reasonable responses, and therein is more evidence of skilled, world-class trolling.  Good job!

Re "most airports...."

I'm surprised how good some of the smaller ones are....for example CYPG Portage la Prairie, Manitoba. On the whole excellent right down to some of the buildings there.

This sim has a lot of potential.

Dave

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, marsman2020 said:

What a load of elitist "my hand flying is better than you" word not allowed making excuses for Asobo's poorly QAed product.

VORs and ILS systems are being turned off across the country.  We are 20 years into widespread use of GPS navigation.  Expecting things like being able to load an RNAV approach into the avionics is not "forgetting how to fly", it's expecting basic IFR equipment to be fit for purpose in the sim and basic functionality to work out of the box.  Things that worked in the FSX GPS 14 years ago!

 

 

Elitist? Pilotage was taught to all students since before the war. Decades of accumulated aviation wisdom, that it was required that ALL pilots could draw upon to conduct safe and efficient flights. If today you are saying that it is 'Elitist' then I guess the warnings I heard many mention when GPS first appeared in the cockpit have come to pass.

Turn off GPS and your lost.. you don't know what your cross track wind component is, you have no idea what your ETA is at your next way point. All because the simple and basic skills to tell you all of this have been deferred to a shiny glass screen. Elitist... 

Furthermore, why are you even bothering to worry about flying RNAV approaches? Because it is self-evident that you have no understanding on what an RNAV approach actually is. Your plan is to select an RNAV approach from the shiny screen and hit APR on the autopilot.. and convince yourself you have just flown an RNAV approach? Congratulations..

Any of the default planes that are in any way IFR capable.. can fly a successful RNAV approach as it stands.. they have working NAV/DME do they not? You understand how to get a fix using those right? You can even use the autopilot to follow a heading, and v/s mode to follow your rule of three to minimums.

I am not espousing some elitist stuff. This is rudimentary knowledge that unless you understand how to do you have no business conducting RNAV approaches accept as a form of self-deceit that you can fly them. Sorry to be harsh, and yes this is just a simulator, but to hear the way you are complaining about the GPS and talking about RNAV approaches is ridiculous. Remember this, there are are entire generations of pilots who have crossed entire countries with pilotage, never once being lost, knowing this stuff wasn't the exception it was the rule..

Edited by BusheFlyer
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8 hours ago, marsman2020 said:

VORs and ILS systems are being turned off across the country.  We are 20 years into widespread use of GPS navigation.  Expecting things like being able to load an RNAV approach into the avionics is not "forgetting how to fly", it's expecting basic IFR equipment to be fit for purpose in the sim and basic functionality to work out of the box.  Things that worked in the FSX GPS 14 years ago!

 

 

Fsx gps is/was completely NOT able to fly precision rnav/rap approaches with the vertical component.  Some addon aircraft could.  Not even sure if that has changed in p3dv5 to be honest.

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34 minutes ago, ShawnG said:

Fsx gps is/was completely NOT able to fly precision rnav/rap approaches with the vertical component.  Some addon aircraft could.  Not even sure if that has changed in p3dv5 to be honest.

 I said nothing about the AP. Just that in FSX, you could load in the approach waypoints to fly manually.  Which doesn't event work in MSFS in many cases.

1 hour ago, BusheFlyer said:

Elitist? Pilotage was taught to all students since before the war. Decades of accumulated aviation wisdom, that it was required that ALL pilots could draw upon to conduct safe and efficient flights. If today you are saying that it is 'Elitist' then I guess the warnings I heard many mention when GPS first appeared in the cockpit have come to pass.

Turn off GPS and your lost.. you don't know what your cross track wind component is, you have no idea what your ETA is at your next way point. All because the simple and basic skills to tell you all of this have been deferred to a shiny glass screen. Elitist... 

 

I was really enjoying flying one of the bush flights with the Savage Cub with no GPS using just SkyVector VFR charts and a stopwatch.  But the 1.9.3 patch broke my flight so new legs don't register, so I can't finish it, and I don't feel like repeating hours of time or messing teleporting my plane in Dev mode to get back to where I was.  Maybe Asobo will fix it in a future update, maybe not. (I'm not holding my breath)

This has nothing to do with pilot ability or inability, you are being disingenuous and conflating two unrelated things.

If you want to go do VFR stuff with no navaids or fly VOR to VOR great on you, but that isn't what everyone wants, and the avionics in most of the aircraft in this "simulator" are totally broken in many cases terms of being able to use current practices and procedures.

 


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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, marsman2020 said:

 I said nothing about the AP. Just that in FSX, you could load in the approach waypoints to fly manually.  Which doesn't event work in MSFS in many cases.

I was really enjoying flying one of the bush flights with the Savage Cub with no GPS using just SkyVector VFR charts and a stopwatch.  But the 1.9.3 patch broke my flight so new legs don't register, so I can't finish it, and I don't feel like repeating hours of time or messing teleporting my plane in Dev mode to get back to where I was.  Maybe Asobo will fix it in a future update, maybe not. (I'm not holding my breath)

This has nothing to do with pilot ability or inability, you are being disingenuous and conflating two unrelated things.

If you want to go do VFR stuff with no navaids or fly VOR to VOR great on you, but that isn't what everyone wants, and the avionics in most of the aircraft in this "simulator" are totally broken in many cases terms of being able to use current practices and procedures.

 

No, this has EVERYTHING to do with ability, this is not disingenuous, I have made it pretty clear because I am correct. There is no grey area here.. you are complaining about the GPS functionality being 'totally broken' and saying you can not use navaids or fly approaches as a result. I am telling you the fact that you are so dependent on the GPS is self evident that that is the only acceptable option you believe you have. I can do a full IFR flight plan just fine, I can do the approaches. The GPS is just not important to me. This is not brain science or some hidden art, this is basic rudimentary knowledge that anyone flying airways SHOULD have. Having a garmin do all the thinking for you is fine and acceptable but only if you know HOW it thinks.

So in the meantime, whilst MSFS is developing and improving you might have to use your brain a bit more, is that such really such a bad thing to get all upset about? 

Look, I understand not all flight sim pilots really hold ATPL's or Instrument Ratings. In the real world, you can not pick up the knowledge to get one in a few hours of reading. Contrary to how some might think it to be, an IR is a bit more complicated than the instructor showing you how to select an approach on a garmin unit and press APR, thank you.. that will be $26,000 please.

In the real world, that is the depth of knowledge you will need to fly airways (and if carrying paying passengers, you will need considerable experience in the right seat). In the sim world none of that is the case, yet people like to fly airways and do approaches without ever having real world experience or the appropriate training, which I am guessing is at the root of your current frustration.

So perhaps I am being over harsh on you, I apologize.

Edited by BusheFlyer
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