I probably missed something... (Adobe Traffic Pack)

[celticmatrix 0]

Thanks a lot, EngineRoom, for the info regarding airline callsigns! Interesting to see how this thread developed. I personally would like to thank the freeware authors for the countless hours they invested in making such fine ai aircraft. It is much appreciated.However, I could not have said it better than RobertK. Time is so valuable, and I think it would benefit us all, legal problems and quarrels aside, if efforts in this direction -- the creation of a high-quality ai package, freeware or payware -- could be intensified. The demand surely exists. Maybe the infamous Adobe Traffic Pack was the attempt of one individual to accomplish just that. I just give him the benefit of the doubt right now. So, what am I going to do about it? I'd like to honour the freeware author's rights. If I uninstalled the pack and re-installed all AIA, FsPainter and EvolveAI aircraft sepearately, would I be good to go? Intersting moral question on the "consumer" side...

[Guest DanW]

>My, what have I started...>Thank you to those who answered my question, and also thank>you to those who pointed to World of AI, this looks indeed>interesting.>>I would like to counter an allegation that seems to be flowing>around here a little bit, that a flightsimmer who prefers AI>in one package is just "lazy" and "mediocre".>>Well thank you very much, but I DO have a life, and a job. And>while Flightsimming is my hobby, I am glad these days when I>actually get to FLY. Using hundreds of hours to download>individual planes and liveries, and to install them, is just>as much out of the question as me hopping onto the Queen Mary>2 tomorrow and doing a world-tour in the best cabin.>>If you have the hours to individually build your own AI>traffic, I congratulate you, because time is our most valuable>possession to have.>I don't, I am sure many others also do not, and I (and>possibly many others) certainly do not like to be called>"lazy" and "mediocre" for it.>>Get off your high horse and try to see this side of the coin.>>End of rant.>>Regards,>>RobertHi Robert,I understand your view - but it's still pirating!Dan

[Guest MD11Forever]

>Using hundreds of hours to download>individual planes and liveries, and to install them, is just>as much out of the question as me hopping onto the Queen Mary>2 tomorrow and doing a world-tour in the best cabin.>Quite the exaggeration there. It doesn't take "hundreds of hours" to add AI. Does it take time? Yes. But I think that most people would be surprised by what they could accomplish in just *one* evening. Nearly all of the required aircraft and repaints are easy to find, and do not take a long time to install once one learns how to do so. Most of the newer releases from AIA and EVAI, for example, take a matter of seconds to copy and paste what you need to the right location. The most difficult part would be finding good flightplans to use, and this has been complicated by the departure of MRAI from the scene. There are many individuals who are stepping in to fill that gap, and you will find their products here on AVSIM as well as Flightsim; along with a few other sites. It isn't impossible.It took me a short time to learn how to work with AI, and once I did I realized how easy it was- my delays were just excuses for not learning. And when you look at it, the payoff is immense; and the time invested compares favorably with the tim required to learn a high-end payware aircraft, such as a PMDG product. Regards, George Widener

[Guest RobertK]

>Hi Robert,>>I understand your view - but it's still pirating!>>Dan>Err, no, it's not, at least not, what I was going on about, and that was to have one cumulative AI package instead of a million individual files.That the Adobe pack at least seems to be piracy, I concur with.I actually checked out the installer.This is part of the license agreement:"1. Comercial use of this Traffic Pack (in any kind) is prohibited. This is not public release version.2. All material used in this Traffic Pack is made by the author (Adobe) and copyrighted to the author except following: * Korean Air A306 Normal, B737-900 by Lee Yunjin (http://flyfreesky.com/) * Asiana B737-400, B737-500, B747-400, B747-400M, B767-300 by Park Gwang Yong (http://www.skytimes.net) * Korean Air A330-200 by Lee Sung Chul (Lee Seung Chul) * Other Korean, Asiana Air Aircraft Repaint by Adobe3. All files used in this Traffic Pack should not be modified or used in any other Traffic Pack or be redistributed.4. Uploading or linking of this Traffic Pack without author

[Dirk98 354]

>It took me a short time to learn how to work with AI, and once>I did I realized how easy it was- my delays were just excuses>for not learning.Very well pointed out George, exactly my case with excuses yet.>And when you look at it, the payoff is immense; and the time>invested compares favorably with the tim required to learn a>high-end payware aircraft, such as a PMDG product. Sounds good from all aspects. Very constructive points.

[Guest m1k3n34l]

>Let's not go overboard here. If files have been used without>your permission then that is a problem you have with Adobe et>al, and you need to take it up with them. This is the first>time I've heard of any infringements and the pack has been>available for quite some time. If this is the case I would>suggest contacting Adobe and having the situation remedied.>>What this member of the Avsim Staff was applauding was the>fact that someone FINALLY put all files and repaints into an>executable so that it is all in one place. The pack saved me>hundreds of hours of downloads, searches and hand>installations and Adobe is not passing off any of the aircraft>or repaints as his own.So, following this to a logical end, are you saying that if I were to compile a complete package of scenery using titles from Megascenery, Flight1, Feeeflow, FS Genesis, and Aerosoft -- to name a few -- that I too would be applauded by the Avsim staff for my efforts to put everything together in one place? After all, this would make it far easier for people to install and use rather than taking the time to do such silly things as entering their credit card numbers, downloading wrapper files, validating authenticity and rights-to-use, then stepping through the install process for each individual package. I wouldn't say that the works are my own; would that make it okay and applaudable to engage in software piracy? As these questions are rhetorical, allow me to provide the answer myself; absolutely, positiviely, under no uncertain terms, NO!The only difference between the two cases is that the afore mentioned sets of Legally Copyrighted Property which are being unlawfully redistributed by Adobe are graciously offered to the community without charge to the end-user, provided that they comply with Terms of License to use said Property. To applaud Unlawful use and distribution in a public forum is not only in poor taste, judgement, and ethical standing, it is a Liability for not only the person condoning said action, but also the organization for which the individual publicly speaks.If Adobe were to generate a script that would simply automate the process to download each individual package from authorized sites, in their entirety, and automate installation in compliance with the license of each individual package, then I too would applaud the effort; this would be truly an individual piece of work which would not infringe on anyone's legal rights. If Adobe were to contact the individual copyright owners and seek permission in liew of committing theft of digital property, who knows -- permission MAY have been granted, then we could ALL applaud the efforts of EVERYONE involved. As it stands now, however, Adobe is committing Legal Infringement of International Copyrights for Properties in Digital Format. Any public comments on the matter should condemn such actions, not encourage nor promote the continued disregard for International Law.-Mike

[Guest luminographer]

HiAs a Korean, I would like to adress some points regarding Adobe's Traffic Pack.Firstly, I was quite surprised to see that many people know of this Traffic Pack since this package was intended for the Korean FS community only. Also, Adobe has only uploaded the package to one site and forbids redirecting or uploading in other sites. This package has only been known to the Korean FS community and has not been 'advertised'(in want of a better word) to foreign communities. Adobe also allows only Koreans to download the package. Yes, this does mean that foreigners should ask permission before hand.Now, I want to make myself clear on the above sentece since obviously it can bring misunderstanding very easily. The reason for this was due to a slighly nasty incident that had happened to Adobe. Few months ago, I believe, some Japanese people had flamed Adobe regarding the package and his site (and Koreans in general. I do not want to criticize 'the Japanese.' You get crazy people in every country). I cannot quite remember how exactly everything happened but it is enough to know that because of this, Adobe limited the downloading to the Korean FS community only.Also, on the download site(of which I cannot put up, seeing URLs have been deleted in the above posts), Adobe states in Korean that all works included in the package belong to their respective owners.I have currently asked his position regarding the copyright and I am waiting for his reply now. I also have asked him of the note in the installer.Hopefully I'll be able to post his reply and clarify his positionRegards,Daein Kang

[Guest luminographer]

Just one thing...Adobe has NOT 'graciously' offered to the community 'in whole.'It is intended for the Korean FS community and has not been uploaded anywhere else except his site.Although it may not look very different, the nuance changes....Yes, it indeed was his mistake/fault in not asking permission and uploading them.Also, I would like to add that he does state that on the installer in Korean that all AI aircraft and flight plans belong to their respective owners.The Korean and English version do not match. I am waiting his reply on this matter

[Dirk98 354]

I wonder what if it turns out we are all Koreans here? Will it really change attitudes?

[Guest luminographer]

I merely stated that I am a Korean because I felt I needed to represent the other side.I haven't been on FS for about a year or so, so I do not know whether this issue was raised within the Korean community as well.

[Mike T 208]

Mike:There are more than enough lawyers in the world, we don't need more pseudo-law diatribe. In your example, EVERYONE KNOWS commercial software being distributed when they see it. However, the freeware "put my file here, don't put it there, except when I say so" is a tad more obsure. The owners of the AI copyrights have made themselves clear and are understood.Today was the FIRST DAY that anyone made any claims about Adobe. So now we know.

[Mike_CFII_MEL 788]

Hello,Are you kidding me?."Adobe also allows only Koreans to download the package. Yes, this does mean that foreigners should ask permission before hand."Adobe has refused to abide by the original creators wishes in regard to copyright and then has the gall to ask others to ask permission to download this package.Personally, I agree with their concept, get the best paints, the best models, flight plans, and so on and place it in one GREAT all-inclusive FREEWARE ADD-ON!!!

[Guest Edam]

>There are more than enough lawyers in the world, we don't need>more pseudo-law diatribe. You've got THAT right!>However, the freeware "put my>file here, don't put it there, except when I say so" is a tad>more obsure. The owners of the AI copyrights have made>themselves clear and are understood.I'd still like to know EXACTLY what the problem is with freeware being offered on sites where the authors don't want them to be, other then them being upset about it. Exactly WHAT harm is done to these authors? Yeah, yeah, copyright this and copyright that, and while that is true, what can you do about it? Exactly nothing. If I had the ability to create a freeware offering, I wouldn't care less where it ended up, simply because that is what I intended it to be...FREEWARE, offered to all. I just don't get it, except that some are just too uptight about such irrelevant things as this. It's a joke.Just let it ride, there are more important things in this world to be concerned about. Sheesh!

[Guest luminographer]

Yes, I know.I think some 'rules' need to be straightened outAlthough, if you want to download what's in the package that is not his work, you can download it from the original sites.I guess he was a bit fed up of some people and decided not to share what he has compiled to whom he was offended by

[RFields5421 1]

This is the first time I've heard of any infringements and the pack has been available for quite some time.Today was the FIRST DAY that anyone made any claims about Adobe. So now we know.I'd suggest you learn to use a "new" feature on these forums - search. Almost every thread on AI aircraft in the past month has been overrun with praise about this package.On the previous thread a couple weeks ago which was four times as long as this one - I pointed out this was copyrighted work used without the permission of the model makers or the repainters.Last fall when a similar package by two gentlemen in Europe was offered on the forum of another site - the discussion here on Avsim discussed the same issues and that thread also discussed the Adobe package as being the same level of piracy. The moderators here pulled that thread quickly stating that Avsim did not support or condone such action, however well intentioned.Or perhaps the names of folders - Adobe_TP_AIA_744 or Adobe_TP_PAI_SB20 would be a clue to people familiar with AI traffic.One of the first things we all learned is that PAI models cannot be distributed with by other web sites. AIA has some restrictions on the use of their models also - and they always emphasize that the permission of individual repainters must be obtained.Or maybe seeing my name on the texture file of a repaint only available on Avsim - yet seeing all repaints and work claimed in the license agreement as the "property" of Adobe - would be a clue.I was been extremely disappointed that Avsim for the past month has not only condoned, but supported on spreading informaton on this and similar illicit collections.