"Study-Level" Aircrafts Do Not Require Payware Addons

[Shug 210]

46 minutes ago, Ricardo41 said:

Let's not forget to mention that the Aersoft airbus falls out of the sky like a locust in Egypt when framerates "drop" to >18

I always found it happened to me when framerates were <18.

[in2tech 588]

49 minutes ago, Ricardo41 said:

MSFS is not intended as a "training device". It's a game. No matter how much money people throw at it, it's not going to turn into a "training device".

Thank goodness, just like I don't expect to be able to operate a destroyer in real life after playing World Of Warships, or driving a train after playing Train Sim World 🙂

I expect fun and enjoyment from all my sims, including MSFS!

[Ricardo41 5,949]

1 hour ago, Shug said:

I always found it happened to me when framerates were <18.

Yeah, below 18. Morning coffee hasn't kicked in yet.

[CJ1045 469]

4 hours ago, cwburnett said:

You mean these approaches?

Awesome post, made my week 😁

And then I fired up the A320neo Flybywire :

 

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by CJ1045

[Moria15 950]

2 hours ago, in2tech said:

Thank goodness, just like I don't expect to be able to operate a destroyer in real life after playing World Of Warships, or driving a train after playing Train Sim World 🙂

I expect fun and enjoyment from all my sims, including MSFS!

I do find it quite amusing when people expect their $60 sim and their $150 aircraft to fully replicate an $8000 piece of dedicated simulator especially when they then use time acceleration and clear skies to fly it in 🙂

Now, each to their own, and everyone has their own way of finding pleasure in a sim/game but no flight sim is a training tool as released, and no-one should ever expect it to be and most of the flight instructors that I know, dread getting a new trainee who has used any of the flight sims because they all say that now they have to unteach all the bad habits..

Graham

Edited October 29, 2020 by Moria15

[Dominique_K 10,144]

1 hour ago, Moria15 said:

I do find it quite amusing when people expect their $60 sim and their $150 aircraft to fully replicate an $8000 piece of dedicated simulator

Graham

The 50-year history of personal computing shows that we have been progressively able to use on our machine programs which were only possible to run on multi-millions dollars computers, in any fields (business, science, engineering).

Specifically, the history of flight simulation shows that what we thought impossible twenty years ago is now available for 70 to 150 bucks. The first payware I reckon having bought was the PMDG 777 for Fly!. The existing liners are  now a level of magnitude or two more complex, better. I imagine that the trend will be that, some years ahead , we will have simulated aircraft yet again a couple of magnitude better than what we have now. 

The only thing that personal computing cannot recreate is not a software issue but the cabin set on hydraulics up and down lifts 😉.

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Dominique_K

[WestAir 2,522]

3 hours ago, in2tech said:

or driving a train after playing Train Sim World 🙂

Slightly off topic but THIS. I operate trains for the Long Island Rail Road in NY. TSW came out with a DLC for my railroad and it is a 2% match to reality. A simmer could log 5k hours operating my train, and still never leave the yard in real life... and it's a train, not a commercial airliner with the whole World to simulate.

Things could be better, but they absolutely could be worse

[cavaricooper 2,615]

20 hours ago, cwburnett said:

I just want to be clear that I am not discouraging anyone from buying payware and I am not discounting payware developers. I have said before and will continue to say that 3PDs are an important part of the ecosystem and I support their efforts. And I own MANY of their products. And I will buy many for MSFS also. 👍

There's room enough for all.

Now, I really need to get some work done...

So far, my favorite post in this thread...

 

I am technically grossly inept in this august company, and so the only contribution I will make is to highlight that we, as end users are enormously fortunate. 

The proven commercial houses will eventually deliver superb aircraft. 

The outpouring of contributions from recent freeware developers such as @robert young, @kaosfere and the Working Title TEAM, Bush League Legends and the FBW A320 TEAM are humbling.  Many of the freeware scenery developers are doing OUTSTANDING work. For the end user, it is the very best of both worlds.

I cannot see any reason, for anything but gratitude and encouragement to every one of the freeware teams. For them to make the effort is the epitome of a "labor of love" and for us to do anything else is unimaginable.  After all, it is a simple matter to evaluate the mod personally, and then decide whether to keep it or not.  Thoughtful suggestions and pointers to the teams are great, and I have sent several emails asking for features when their workloads permit.  That can result in appreciable improvement. Caustic commentary leaves me wondering what the motivation behind the statement truly is?  I cannot say this enough, I AM GRATEFUL FOR THE HUGE SPIRIT OF COMMUNITY FREEWARE DEVELOPMENT THIS SIM HAS CATALYZED.  The only place I saw anything similar, is at SOH (Sim Outhouse) where @mjahn et al reside. The XPL guys did this better than us for DECADES and I'm glad to see the shift.

For the payware developers (having been recently burned by the St. Pete/Clearwater and Sanford scenery releases) I suggest waiting for reviews from TRUSTED sources, and then supporting those you choose with your wallet. There seems to be much lacking in the SDK for their needs, and therefore it appears that the more complex models will take some time. It's great that some others may be making more headway without these needs first being met.  The single most critical difference betwixt the tw is the need to meet payroll.  For the professional companies (only in the fiscal sense, as many of our freeware teams are very professional) the immediate future is VERY uncertain.... how long will it take for the SDK to meet their needs?  How long will people still buy P3D addons?  How will they position themselves so as to not miss the boat?  How will they pay their employees in the meanwhile?  The end game is becoming more clearly obvious, weekly. Finally, as with everything, the proof will be in the pudding.

Meanwhile, I plan on enjoying the sim as it blossoms, and definitely plan on being thoughtful, appreciative and polite in my commentary. AvSim has changed a lot, but I believe Tom appreciated this, always.

My very best to all- Carl

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by cavaricooper

[fppilot 4,371]

 

6 hours ago, CJ1045 said:

 

No, these.  That's all there is in the G1000 and G3000 in MFS.

[jrw4 624]

Thanks to all who participated in this thread, and also those who have joined in the explosive growth of freeware mods for MSFS in the first couple of months of its existence. It's wonderful to speculate on where we will be six months or a year from now based on how far we have come already.

I'm not a developer in any sense of the word (I was a whiz at FORTRAN 66 way back when....), but I do wonder if the firms who currently develop "study level" models for other simulators aren't suffering at least to some degree from the Innovator's Dilemma. If you haven't read the book of that title, it's well worth the time. Basically, it addresses the oft-repeated situation in which new technology disrupts the marketplace that is dominated by industry leaders, allowing entirely new players to achieve first a foothold, and then dominance, while the the previous generation's frontrunners fade away. Each of the current leaders has developed not only the brilliant models that we see as consumers, but also an underlying technology platform that permits them to maintain their products, as well as provide timely upgrades as the simulators themselves undergo upgrades. Presumably, it is very expensive for them to develop new technology platforms, and so for them a corporate strategy of waiting until the MSFS SDK matures makes sense.

And that may work fine. It is in the interest of Asobo to further develop the SDK so that the current vendors can create MSFS models using their current technology platforms. But what happens if, while the current vendors are waiting, some very bright people (of whom there are many) figure out how to achieve 80% of whatever study-level is, capture a large segment of the market, and with the cash flow generated by sales of that product, press their advantage all the way to 100% and beyond? This is a big business risk for those vendors, one that feels like a "bet the company" proposition

In any event, it's going to be interesting. Again, grateful thanks to everyone who are contributing their skills to the community.

[fppilot 4,371]

9 hours ago, Ricardo41 said:

MSFS is not intended as a "training device". It's a game. No matter how much money people throw at it, it's not going to turn into a "training device".

Simulators at this level have been used as training devices for years now.  And this one is potentially better with the visual cues it provides.

[CJ1045 469]

51 minutes ago, fppilot said:

 

 

No, these.  That's all there is in the G1000 and G3000 in MFS.

 

For someone that has posted on here a lot you don't seem to know much about the way sims work, Here is MSFS World Map with the default 172 selected and no mods for it:

 

 

and here is the G1000 in that 172 sitting on the end of the runway before take-off:

 

 

The approaches that can be selected are NOTHING TO DO WITH THE NAV COMPUTER you use. They are entirely determined by the NAV DATA that is used by the sim. I have to confess what you are missing entirely is that both CWBurnett and I were both using Navigraph Airac 2011 nav data in MSFS. 😄

 

CJ

 

 

 

[LarryD 132]

13 hours ago, fppilot said:

I am still flying most of my serious flights, mostly with some need for iFR, in FSX SE with RXP GPS avionics and complete and updated nav databases.  Example: one of my frequent FBO's is at KUMP.  The Garmin database includes (5) instrument approaches.  

 

So tell us a little bit about this Garmin database.  The default MSFS database does what you say at KUMP, only shows the VOR approach.  The Navigraph upgraded database shows all of the approaches as the others of shown.  The same thing happened at my local airport of C65.  No approaches at all with the default database, but navigraph database installed them.

So what is this Garmin database you are referring to, and how did you install it in MSFS?  Just curious.

[KenG 492]

7 hours ago, Moria15 said:

I do find it quite amusing when people expect their $60 sim and their $150 aircraft to fully replicate an $8000 piece of dedicated simulator especially when they then use time acceleration and clear skies to fly it in 🙂

Now, each to their own, and everyone has their own way of finding pleasure in a sim/game but no flight sim is a training tool as released, and no-one should ever expect it to be and most of the flight instructors that I know, dread getting a new trainee who has used any of the flight sims because they all say that now they have to unteach all the bad habits..

Graham

Graham,

 Where do you get $8,000 from? For $8,000 you get a BATD with a generic single engine piston airplane running P3D or XPlane Pro. 

 For a FSTD Level 4 which is a Cockpit Procedure Trainer (CPT) the price jumps to between $700,000 to over $1 Million USD. 

 For a Level D Full Flight Simulator you are talking in the ballpark of $14 million USD. 

 Even a real GTN 750 will cost you around $30,000 USD new and installed or $15,000 for a green tag version (serviceable used.)

 $60 might get you a 30 minute Discovery flight and for $150 you might get an hour in something like an Archer. (Add another $45 for the CFI.) 

 Aviation is expensive. As the saying goes if it flies or floats its better to rent it. 

[cavaricooper 2,615]

@KenG

Ken, the saying usually includes another F word... If it F____, flies or floats- lease it!

I am always amused by the number of people that expect a fully functional Garmin simulation in their $30 aircraft... in a $60 sim.  I on the other hand remember saving for months for my first Northstar Loran...

😉

C

Edited October 29, 2020 by cavaricooper