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tweekz

Sensitivity still flawed !

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Hi guys!

Update 5 introduced some changes to the sensitivity. Unfortunately all it did was introducing some weird new input response curves. While the actual problem seems to be more of aerodynamic nature.

My guess would be a problem with calculating dynamic pressure on control surfaces. Planes usually are less responsive during landing / flaring due to lower speed resulting in lower dynamic pressure. In MSFS however it feels like balancing eggs.

You should be able to easily control the plane on linear response curves. Unfortunately MS / ASOBO has moved the "sensitivtiy" bug thread with over 200 votes into the "resolved bugs" section.

If you want to contribute to solving this issue, please vote on the new thread, to make them aware we are still not happy with the current solution.

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/sensitivity-control-surface-authority/310521

 

Thank you in advance!

Edited by tweekz
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MSFS FTW !!
Maybe a little tweaking of ground effect needed. 🙂

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I agree, this new sensitivity curves did not solve anything, it got worse imo.

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Only some planes got tweaked, not all. What I find hilarious is that at really slow speed, rudder has more control authority than at moderate speeds.

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18 minutes ago, Evros said:

Only some planes got tweaked, not all. What I find hilarious is that at really slow speed, rudder has more control authority than at moderate speeds.

That's mostly connected with 2 things. Firstly there are elevator/aileron/rudder "elasticity" variables in the GEOMETRY section of the flight_model.cfg. These are essentially Asobo's translation of the FSX-style control surface authority vs speed entries in the legacy air.file.

You can tune these elasticity values to match speed. You can enter a speed then after a colon you can apply any value, usually between zero and 1 but you can go to a greater value than 1. So if your rudder is too strong at slow taxi speeds you can create a value thus:

0:0.3, 12:0.4

Where the first zero equals zero knots and the next value means 0.3 out of 1, or under a third of the authority, and the next speed (12 knots) has an authority of 0.4, and so forth.

You can then enter the next speed, say. 55 knots, and apply a slightly higher value of authority thus:

55:0.5

These values also have a direct effect on the visual animation of the rudder. So setting a value of 12:01 will mean at 12 knots the rudder will have low power but it will also show as hardly moving even at full deflection. Note the animation NEVER influences the flight model, but sometimes the flight model will influence the model animation.

Secondly, the other influence on rudder is prop wash. If you are taxiing and want to turn left moderately, but then apply quite a lot of power, if the prop wash vs rudder value is high (which they mostly are by default), then you'll suddenly get a much sharper turn. This is partly why the majority of small aircraft in MSFS are too twitchy on take-off roll.

However it isn't quite as simple as that, because you also have the ground steering parameters which are to be frank not very well done, and rather crude. You also have at least 5 other controls or variables that influence control authority and they all combine to give hundreds of variations and permutations. It takes many hours just to get one control surface exactly right, and that's before you even get into the air.

Edited by robert young
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Robert Young - retired full time developer - see my nexus mod page and my GitHub Mod page

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Done


Dominique

Simming since 1981 -  4770k@3.7 GHz with 16 GB of RAM and a 1080 with 8 GB VRAM running a 27" @ 2560*1440 - Warthog HOTAS - MFG pedals - MFS Standard version with Steam

 

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5 hours ago, robert young said:

That's mostly connected with 2 things. Firstly there are elevator/aileron/rudder "elasticity" variables in the GEOMETRY section of the flight_model.cfg. These are essentially Asobo's translation of the FSX-style control surface authority vs speed entries in the legacy air.file.

Yeah, I've found those parameters when I was researching if there's maybe an easy solution in the specific flight model.

But as far as I understood it, this really isn't tackling the main issue. All it does is limiting the surface deflection at certain dynamic pressure. It's more like a workaround. But the surface shouldn't be that effective in first place.

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MSFS FTW !!
Maybe a little tweaking of ground effect needed. 🙂

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Indeed, just as Rob Young pointed above, there are many interconnections between parameters...

I spent a good deal of time trying to figure out how to fine tune one of the default taildraggers to properly act like a free castering tailwheel, but I couldn't yet find the right spot.

At least as much as MFS flight dynamics still needs a lot of love from ASOBO or whoever is behind this particular area of the sim, truth is that now, better than what I recall from previous versions of the sim, I can more realistically feel the effects of propwash on the rudder and elevator authority, but specially rudder, with the possibility to give small bursts of power to get it alive for more tight turns, with the help of differential braking.

 


Use your flight simulators with a well defined purpose...

Don't expect them to be "perfect" or to fully cover all aspects of simulated flight...

Try to enjoy it instead of stressing... ( in few words - don't be like me ... )

 

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With this update when we enter Options/Controls and click on Sensitivity a window opens telling us that there is a 50% of "Sensitivity". I have no idea what this new Sensitivity is doing (just regulating a rate at which the control is moving?). I think this is control affects all the axis at one time, and this is not enough from my point of view. I'd like to have a separate regulation for trims, throttles and other axis. Currently I can not quickly, in one second, drop down my flaps with axes to simulate " 1 potato, 2 potatoes..." take-offs as it takes few seconds to deploy flaps, I can not slow down my axis-driven trim wheel and I can not move the trim quickly with buttons because buttons work too slow (and again, again and again they forget about axis for ailerons and rudder trims, will they ever realize that if they are doing axis for elevator trim, they have to do the same for other trims, isn't this clear enough? How many years do they repeat this issue in every aviasim from Microsoft?), I can not add throttle quickly as it takes few seconds now.

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1 hour ago, tweekz said:

Yeah, I've found those parameters when I was researching if there's maybe an easy solution in the specific flight model.

But as far as I understood it, this really isn't tackling the main issue. All it does is limiting the surface deflection at certain dynamic pressure. It's more like a workaround. But the surface shouldn't be that effective in first place.

Yes, correct. But as I said, there are some other parameters which also control the surface authority, However it has always been the case in several past FS simulators that lift vs speed on control surfaces has never been particularly accurate regarding surface pressure. For many years aircraft developers have used fudges to reduce authority with speed increase, though to be fair the inbuilt speed vs dynamic pressure is not too bad.

The hardest part is giving the elevator enough authority for a healthy stall without it also causing excessive power in the flare. That is the holy grail.

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Robert Young - retired full time developer - see my nexus mod page and my GitHub Mod page

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Different for everyone I suppose, but since the change and setting all mine to -20, I grease every landing now in the C152, the C172, and the Rob Young Turbo G36 (not tried others yet).

I can also keep them straight down the runway now on takeoff and landing in a side wind.  I was constantly over-correcting before.

Edited by bobcat999
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1 hour ago, bobcat999 said:

Different for everyone I suppose, but since the change and setting all mine to -20, I grease every landing now in the C152, the C172, and the Rob Young Turbo G36 (not tried others yet).

I can also keep them straight down the runway now on takeoff and landing in a side wind.  I was constantly over-correcting before.

Do us a favour Bobcat and post a screen shot of your Sensitivity page.

Ta, in advance.

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Voted, though I would suggest posting this in the Wishlist section instead. It is less crowded and it might gain more traction.

Personally I think the ailerons feel quite good now but the elevator is still somewhat twitchy.

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Voted, I don't know why we can't have something like what is in Xplane to control our joysticks etc.

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The Cessnas feel a lot better now for me.  Before the patch I had my sensitivity way down to almost the lowest it would go and the planes still behaved light fighter jets.  After the patch I tried to take off and could barely move the plane until I adjusted my sensitivities way closer to normal.  I don't know how accurate they are yet, but they certainly feel a lot more like they should.  Before I felt like I could do a barrel roll the controls were so twitchy. 


-------------------------

Craig from KBUF

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1 hour ago, ChaoticBeauty said:

Personally I think the ailerons feel quite good now but the elevator is still somewhat twitchy.

Exactly! Aileron seems fine. But elevator and rudder are all over the place. Sure, a joystick does not have the same range as a real stick or yoke - but I am able to make smooth adjustments in XP - so this must be possible in MSFS as well.

Interestingly, I think that planes actually do account for dynamic pressure and become more responsive with higher speeds. The only problem is that they are already way too responsive at low speeds. Maybe a lack of inertia plays a role in that equation as well. Wouldn't be the first time.

Edited by tweekz
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MSFS FTW !!
Maybe a little tweaking of ground effect needed. 🙂

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