Overlays with WMR

[MarcG 2,962]

For other Flight Sims what's everyone's process for getting Apps and other Programs to show up in VR when using WMR?

I've got OnAir & Little NavMap that I'm using constantly so would need these to be available via an Overlay, the last thing I need is to be constantly taking On/Off the HMD, I'll need everything in VR there in the Cockpit ready to go from Day One (if possible). Thanks

[cercata 22]

Good Question.

External programs being used until now will not work, because the rely on SteamVR, and this is gonna be based on OpenXR. So I see 3 potential ways to do it:

1. New OpenXR Overlay apps
2. WMR Portal "Virtual Desktop" features ?
3. Addons/Plugins creating UI inside the game

Does anyone know if the point 2 is posible like with Oculus ?

[aurel42 10]

2 hours ago, cercata said:

External programs being used until now will not work, because the rely on SteamVR, and this is gonna be based on OpenXR.

Is that a fact or speculation? While I agree that open standards are always the way to go, I have no idea whether OpenXR is ready for prime time yet. As far as I'm aware, the SteamVR drivers so far only include a subset of OpenXR in the beta branch?

The one thing I miss after switching headsets from Oculus to Valve is the easy and comfortable way to pin any desktop window in my virtual space.

Do I understand correctly that there are tools that allow me to do the same thing using SteamVR? Can someone recommend a tool like that?

[cercata 22]

Fact:

https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/mixed-reality-blog/moving-forward-to-openxr/ba-p/1825672

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/vr-beta-help/305889/30

Edited October 31, 2020 by cercata

[aurel42 10]

1 hour ago, cercata said:

Fact:

I accept as a fact that WMR headsets will use OpenXR, and as highly likely that other VR headsets will, too.

I hesitate to accept "no support for SteamVR" as a fact at this point, though, mainly because of three questions to which I don't know the answers:

• Is the "developer preview" of Valve's OpenXR feature-complete, so it would be able to run MFS?
• Is it a significant amount of work to support SteamVR in addition to OpenXR? (It could just be a matter of including a compatibility layer. So far, developers supporting one VR ecosystem seemed to have little trouble adding support for other VR ecosystems, which might indicate that it's quite easy to support different hardware when you've got the basics down. Actually rendering the world in VR is probably only a small part of the effort, compared to e.g. designing a user interface that is VR friendly.)
• Is Asobo willing to exclude a significant share of "the niche" from the experience until Valve releases their OpenXR drivers in the stable branch of SteamVR?

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by aurel42

[cercata 22]

OpenXR is the new standard, so if MSFS doesn't work on those HMDs, we should blame Oculus, Valve, etc. It has been more than a year since the Chronos group published the final specification.

I guess Microsoft is in contact with them and they know their plans for releasing the final version on OpenXR

X-plane initially only supported SteamVR, they tried to avoid Oculus SDK, they finally did it because of performance reasons. But that shouldn't be the case anymore once Oculus/Valve do a proper implementation of OpenXR.

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by cercata

[aurel42 10]

8 minutes ago, cercata said:

OpenXR is the new standard, so if MSFS doesn't work on those HMDs, we should blame Oculus, Valve, etc.

The operative word in this sentence is, for me, "new". Supporting legacy hardware/drivers/standards in addition to the "hot ****" is not unheard of. Think of games that support DirectX and OpenGL (back in the day), or DX11 and DX12, or DirectX and Vulkan.

It's most definitely a lot harder to include support for DirectX and Vulkan, than to support two different (but similar) VR ecosystems.

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by aurel42

[cercata 22]

If you launch a game in DX11/OpenGL, you have interest in porting it to DX12/Vulkan.
But if you launch a game on DX12/Vulkan, I don't really se the interest on porting it to older APIs.

Also, if you launch a game on DX12, a see the interest in porting it to Vulkan to reach things beyond windowns.
But if you launch your game with Vulkan, there is not much interest in porting it to DX12.

If people at Asobo were really bored, maybe they would bother about SteamVR, but with so many missing things and bugs, I think they'll pass on it. For example, I guess multiple monitors will be much more prioritary.

Edited October 31, 2020 by cercata

[aurel42 10]

13 minutes ago, cercata said:

If people at Asobo were really bored, maybe they would bother about SteamVR, but with so many missing things and bugs, I think they'll pass on it.

You must realize that is the "why do they release Japan while the AP is broken" fallacy, so I assume you just need to be right here.

Okay, you're right.

 

[MarcG 2,962]

Right, so the answer is "we don't know yet" then 😄 I just hope there's something we can do at time of release, be interesting to hear what the beta tetsers say in the coming weeks (there's always someone who'll leak information from under the NDA!)

[Nedo68 533]

Valve invests a lot of energy to improve the VR experience,

not just because their own VR Headset (Valve Index) but also in their own VR games (Half-Life: Alyx as an example)

I am sure MSFS will work ok with SteamVR.

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Nedo68

[JaredMonkey 1]

Looking at Little Nav Map, it looks like a standard 2d Windows application. Right now, if you are using SteamVR you can use OVR Toolkit, OVR Drop or Desktop Portal to bring 2d windows applications that are running on your desktop into SteamVR and place them in 3d around you.

For OpenXR there is a path being worked on in which multiple applications will be able to run simultaneously. Multiple 2d and eventually even spatial (XR) apps will be able to run at the same time. Think of it kind of like being able to run multiple AR apps while also in VR. Imagine talking to someone as if they're in the cockpit with you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrtKyAxdV3g

Full disclosure, I'm also a contributor working this type of technology. 

There are some references to this working in OpenXR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMjYuSbko4M

This is a super interesting use case, to bring multiple apps in while using MSFS.

One thing to imagine which I'm excited about is as these AR apps start to work well in simulation, those same apps may be able to be used in the future in real life too, on AR devices.

I'll be trying to run multiple apps alongside MSFS as it becomes available through SteamVR for sure.

 

[blueshark747 1,843]

FS Flight Control handles all of my VR needs in one product.

https://www.fs-flightcontrol.com/en/

[MarcG 2,962]

Ok so yesterday I grabbed OVR Toolkit and so far it's great, the customisation of each window is brilliant once you get the knack for it. Everything is useable without the need for Controllers (big Plus point for me) and the FPS/Performance loss when in Flight is minimal.

I picked up on a bug so went to their Discord, the Dev was very friendly and together we found the issue, which he fixed and will release in a Hotfix today (already works in Beta), so the "customer service" aspect is also brilliant.

I've not yet used it for long periods though, will do later, it works OK with LNM but lacks functionality when mini pop-up windows in LNM are required (like adding a Traffic pattern) and when Alt-Tabbing its a bit of an unknown, but overall it's a great program and one I hope will flourish in the future.

[Romeo_Tango 143]

On 12/9/2020 at 3:01 PM, blueshark747 said:

FS Flight Control handles all of my VR needs in one product.

https://www.fs-flightcontrol.com/en/

Is there a forum where i could find more information on how to integrate and work with the program? I have downloaded it and read the online manual, but all this gives is details on how to install in windows. I have found no info on how to connect or use is MSFS.

Thanks