satellite data in the US

[Dominique_K 10,133]

The MSF mesh anomalies (statistical errors)  are also incomprehensible. For the past 15 years, the quality and resolution of the mesh in our sims  have steadily improved. Excellent payware and freeware are available for the US (incl. Alaska and Hawaii). I have in P3D the Pilots mesh bought in 2013, which is better than the MSF one. Asobo seems to have picked up meshes of the early 2000 for some places... Same for the Alps.

As for many things, they seem not having taking stock of what was good before them. Yes, yes, it is a ten-year project, I know....😉

17 minutes ago, desbean said:

What you have to remember is that MSFS is a ten year...just kidding.  I think it's a combination of two things. 1. Up to date satellite data is very expensive. 2. Bing figures not many people use data out in the rural areas.

😀

Bing doesn’t buy sat pics for MSF only. And it is a little weird that they have fairly good imagery for Western China and not West Virginia ... 

Edited November 7, 2020 by Dominique_K

[desbean 357]

6 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

And it is a little weird that they have fairly good imagery for Western China and not West Virginia ... 

That's the strange part for me. The whole country of South Korea looks really nice, but then again it's about the same size as the state of Virginia.

Edited November 7, 2020 by desbean

[Shack95 2,658]

3 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

The MSF mesh anomalies (statistical errors)  are also incomprehensible. For the past 15 years, the quality and resolution of the mesh in our sims  have steadily improved. Excellent payware and freeware are available for the US (incl. Alaska and Hawaii). I have in P3D the Pilots mesh bought in 2013, which is better than the MSF one. Asobo seems to have picked up meshes of the early 2000 for some places... Same for the Alps.

It seems they just took the mesh/DEM from Bing Maps. This led me to believe that it‘s not that easy for them to implement their own mesh, maybe because of the streaming tech or something like that. But, as it turned out, it is possible (see world updates). This makes me wonder what they were thinking when they decided to use Bing Maps‘ DEM in the first place to be honest. It‘s so obvious that it‘s of no good quality. Anyway, at least they‘re doing something about it now. I‘m really curious about the US update. I hope it will be as good as they say mesh-wise. 

Regarding imagery I‘m a bit less optimistic. We will certainly see improvements, but here the costs could be a problem. 

[Dominique_K 10,133]

4 minutes ago, Shack95 said:

It seems they just took the mesh/DEM from Bing Maps. This led me to believe that it‘s not that easy for them to implement their own mesh, maybe because of the streaming tech or something like that. But, as it turned out, it is possible (see world updates). This makes me wonder what they were thinking when they decided to use Bing Maps‘ DEM in the first place to be honest. It‘s so obvious that it‘s of no good quality. Anyway, at least they‘re doing something about it now. I‘m really curious about the US update. I hope it will be as good as they say mesh-wise. 

Regarding imagery I‘m a bit less optimistic. We will certainly see improvements, but here the costs could be a problem. 

Bing maps are sat photos in the visible spectrum. The DEM  maps technically come from another source (radar or equivalent surveys ). They can be joined or disjoined. This is exactly how it works in our sims today, including with photo imagery. They don’t have to implement their own mesh just to buy better ones and grind them to the MSF format. We have a sim « cooked » by good game software engineers who had a minimal exposure to modern flight simulation before starting their project. Everything shows that.

For the imagery, it all depends of what MS wants to do with Bing. Will they stay on the market where they are not a dominant player, or not. If they do, I expect some steady improvements.

 

[fppilot 4,339]

13 hours ago, desbean said:

This is what I see in big areas of Virginia, green roads and snow.

OK. Will be over that way early to mid-week.  Give me some bearings and I too will take a look.  And what altitude are those images taken from?

[marsman2020 1,310]

Update 7 is the US world update and per the Dev Q&A will have a new digital elevation model (1m or better) and new otrho imagery for many parts of the US)

[Shack95 2,658]

1 hour ago, Dominique_K said:

Bing maps are sat photos in the visible spectrum. The DEM  maps technically come from another source (radar or equivalent surveys ). They can be joined or disjoined. This is exactly how it works in our sims today, including with photo imagery. They don’t have to implement their own mesh just to buy better ones and grind them to the MSF format.

Yes, I know. I described what I had thought (or should I say feared) before they announced mesh improvements. With „their own“ mesh I meant „not the mesh that‘s used by Bing Maps“, i.e. 3PD mesh. Sorry if I expressed myself clumsily. 

[desbean 357]

3 hours ago, fppilot said:

OK. Will be over that way early to mid-week.  Give me some bearings and I too will take a look.  And what altitude are those images taken from?

probably about 2,500-3,000'. Try KDAN north to LYH west to ODR/KROA

[fppilot 4,339]

2 hours ago, desbean said:

probably about 2,500-3,000'. Try KDAN north to LYH west to ODR/KROA

I flew today out of Roanoke, over Smith Mtn Lake, halfway from there to GSO, then west to PSK, back to KROA.  I saw some of what you reported in your original post around Smith Mtn Lake, but found no waterfalls.  Just some drawing of reflections on the water from the sun, which was directly ahead of my bearing at that time.  As I reached the mountains between my turn west and PSK I left the white and green artifacts behind and did not see any more between there, PSK, or back to KROA.

[fppilot 4,339]

8 hours ago, Steve Dra said:

Wow....now I fully understand why you are so attracted to that color on your DA!....The lightbulb JUST came on! 🤣

Actually that red color comes from my alma mater...  Which had a very good afternoon...

[marsman2020 1,310]

5 hours ago, Shack95 said:

Yes, I know. I described what I had thought (or should I say feared) before they announced mesh improvements. With „their own“ mesh I meant „not the mesh that‘s used by Bing Maps“, i.e. 3PD mesh. Sorry if I expressed myself clumsily. 

A lot of the highest resolution digital elevation models come from government organizations like the USGS in the United States

I'm betting they found a single source for the whole world in a single data format they thought was "good enough" for an initial release, but getting the highest resolution for each area might require a lot of requests to governments and additional work to translate data in different formats into the streaming back-end.

Sometimes there is raw data that has been collected and not post-processed into a usable output format as well, which is "available upon request", and with government and academic organizations, requests like that take time.

Edited November 7, 2020 by marsman2020

[Dominique_K 10,133]

If I read well what Neuman said, MS has made a deal with the USGS (or Amazon ?). This is what is available today according to the USGS site. 

• The 2 arc-second dataset covers the State of Alaska. 60 m sampling.
• The 1 arc-second dataset covers the conterminous United States (CONUS), Mexico, and Canada. It also covers Hawaii, areas of Alaska, Puerto Rico and Territorial Islands of the U.S. : 30 m sampling 
• The 1/3 arc-second dataset covers the CONUS, Hawaii, areas of Alaska, Puerto Rico and Territorial Islands of the U.S. : 10 m sampling 
• The 1/9 arc-second dataset covers areas of the CONUS and limited areas of Alaska. : 3 m sampling 
• The 1 meter dataset covers limited areas of the CONUS but will increase in geographic coverage as additional lidar data are acquired.

A map giving more details on the lidar 3DEP program at 
https://portal.opentopography.org/datasets

If they deliver that in the sim and keeping everything fluid including the streaming, that would be a real breakthrough in flight simulation scenery. 9.8 M km2 at  a 1 meter sampling, that makes a lot of data. A lot 😉 ! 

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by Dominique_K

[Shack95 2,658]

10 hours ago, marsman2020 said:

I'm betting they found a single source for the whole world in a single data format they thought was "good enough" for an initial release, but getting the highest resolution for each area might require a lot of requests to governments and additional work to translate data in different formats into the streaming back-end.

I guess you‘re right. I‘m pretty sure the „good enough“ mesh data are the same they use in Bing Maps. If you compare MSFS with Bing Maps you‘ll notice that the DEMs are identical (apart from Japan after the update which has a far more accurate DEM now). Since MS already owned the data it was an obvious decision. 

[Old_As_Dirt 160]

On 11/6/2020 at 8:43 PM, fppilot said:

I flew over most of Virginia today from E to W and did not see anything that looked like that.  Route was:

 KESN PXT  TAPPA  GVE V473 MOL V290 RNL V260 HVQV128 YRK V128 CVG  MOUTH  KBMG

Should have taken some screenshots.  Green, lush, and highly detailed.

Perhaps your experience is related to the issues you are experiencing with your system (have read your separate topic).

 

Try around KLYH and south/southwest of that area.  I think you will find plenty of snow!

[fppilot 4,339]

 

1 hour ago, Old_As_Dirt said:

Try around KLYH and south/southwest of that area.  I think you will find plenty of snow!

Yes, that is the area around Smith Mountain Lake that I reported I flew over yesterday.  I also took a look at Bing 3D and it is in the current image there, so thus present in the sim.