Terrain issues after 1.12.13.0 update

[lagaffe 203]

@Alpine Scenery,

It's very kind of you to correct certain points while waiting for Asobo's patch, but in relation to the working hypothesis that I presented based on OSM and QGIS, is this the method that you apply?

Rather than doing it yourself, if several of us had the opportunity to do it, it would be more productive for the whole community.

Edited December 26, 2020 by lagaffe

[Old_As_Dirt 160]

On 12/25/2020 at 10:16 AM, desbean said:

KROA is one of my favorite airports, as I used to live in the area. There has been an fix available at flightsim.to for the past month or so that got rid of all spikes/bumps in SW Virginia, including the Roanoke area (and that giant one at KROA), but now Asobo is fixing them. Without the fix there are still a few south of Roanoke, but much better now. The latest update seemed to fix all of the Smith Mt Lake and Roanoke River elevation problems also. Now we just need an addon for the star! There was a nice one for FSX.

The Star would be a great addition.  I had the one for FSX!

[simba_nl 34]

I see the same anomaly in the Venetia area, flying from Slovenia and Croatia to Italy. On Venetia City and a bit more to the west 3 Piramids. It all shrinks away when flying toward it. You see it both in 2D and VR.

Happy landings

[desbean 357]

4 hours ago, Old_As_Dirt said:

The Star would be a great addition.  I had the one for FSX!

We will eventually have one in MSFS.

[Alpine Scenery 1,609]

13 hours ago, lagaffe said:

@Alpine Scenery,

It's very kind of you to correct certain points while waiting for Asobo's patch, but in relation to the working hypothesis that I presented based on OSM and QGIS, is this the method that you apply?

Rather than doing it yourself, if several of us had the opportunity to do it, it would be more productive for the whole community.

Hey LG:

Thanks for the comments, hope things going well...
Sure, anyone is welcome to contribute an area, automated or otherwise and I can include it if they send me the shape file. Just post what areas you/they are doing and I will avoid doing that one myself and include any files sent.

My thinking is that Asobo is probably going to fix this any moment now, so if we dedicate a bunch of labor it might not be worth it. I just did it because no-one else had when I started, but I see one other guy has a version too. 

The manual method produces better looking results, but it depends on the area and the type of errors and how many to if someone should try the automated method. For instance, Canada is really bad in some areas and probably needs the automated method due to the size of the area and sheer number of errors. I had some issues when trying to do automated method (like it cutting mtn in half, or the area not being wide enough, or it destroying photogrammetry), all stuff that has to be edited manually unfortunately. Automated method works better for larger remote areas with too many errors though (like Canada), but both can work ok, try it out and let me know.

Edited December 27, 2020 by Alpine Scenery

[Biology 1,347]

On 12/24/2020 at 11:33 AM, Alpine Scenery said:

Did you post in the wrong thread?

The mesh is not updated through the content manager, it is updated through the automatic stream and the required patches. This has nothing to do with the content manager or the virtual file system.

These issues have been here since the beginning (in varying forms after each patch), there are numerous mods fixing them, and each time Asobo changes the mesh... 

There is no "restart to fix", the US had about 10,000 errors prior to the last patch, now it's down to less than 1,000 (if you don't count climbing water on cliffs)...

Content manager has updated scenery (for world updates) and I wouldn't be surprised if that includes extra mesh. Here's the issue with the VFS: When there's a duplicate file coming from different packages, MSFS VFS just chooses the one which loaded last, which is appearently random. So if the global mesh is stored locally and not streamed, an outdated package might override some of the files and cause issues. This is why FlyByWire A32NX and other mods keep breaking when a new update is out and why some mods seem to break other "unrelated" aircraft anyway. Similarly, the entire idea of restarting the simulator was rebuilding the VFS.

At least it can be tested if the global mesh is stored locally or streamed: What happens to the spikes when you disconnect from the internet (or disable online features of MSFS) and fly in an uncached area?

[Alpine Scenery 1,609]

The problem with the above theory is that I've had 1000's of downloads from users for my elevation mods, and all of our spikes have matched every single time, and that means hundreds of variations in the content manager content. I haven't had a single user report spikes that haven't been seen by another user (or by me directly). Anything can "theoretically" happen...

Furthermore, I am always 100% up to date in the content manager (I check it daily), and even being perfectly 100% up to date all the time, I still haven't had any users (which aren't always up to date) EVER (not once) report a spike that I myself have not also been able to see. So again, the spikes have nothing to do with the content manager, because if it did, then users would be reporting spikes that are 'old' that I myself no longer see (and it has never happened after 10+ versions and over a month of doing this, everything has been exactly and perfectly in-synch by everyone). 

Edited December 27, 2020 by Alpine Scenery

[Christian Bahr 55]

A very nice discussion here, I came across it by accident 😉🙂

Apparently not all users have these spikes! It is reported that some of the spikes occur when an add-on scenery is active, other users report that the spikes only emerged after the last update. I am affected by it myself. Could it perhaps be possible that different users have set their cache (rolloing cache) differently, and that this is why some users have these display errors in the area where other users have no display errors?

Here are my settings for comparison, what are your settings like?

 

[Alpine Scenery 1,609]

They were not flying in the same areas or same altitude or with same graphics settings. Asobo updated the mesh, and Asobo has already admitted that the issue is on their side. If for some "special reason" 5% of the users don't have any spikes, well then it's still an Asobo issue for allowing the other 95% to be infected with the issue, so either way, it's on Asobo.

There is always an inconsistency issue with the reporting of some users (ask any doctor trying to collect information from a study, about 25%+ of the information collected is completely invalid for whatever reason). I am certain (as certain as anyone can be) that the spikes are from ASOBO, please open a new thread if you want to try to prove otherwise because the discussion will go and on and never be resolved.

The spikes cannot be seen at certain elevations or with certain graphics settings at certain elevations, but the spikes are still there. Running high or ultra and flying at the same elevation with same LOD, everyone can see the same spikes. I have 3 PC's here and 3 copies of the software, as well as 2 other developers that help with my other scenery, so 5 PC's internally, and they all have the same spikes, regardless of the version, regardless of the content manager, and regardless of any add-ons (but some airports do HIDE some spikes because the developers are including corrections, but it is not an issue with an addon). As far as "how visible" spikes are and from what distance, yes that can change due to settings, but the spike is still there if you hit the "hot spot" for any given PC settings, so the spikes are the same. Also, not everyone has the same vision or is playing on the same size of monitor. I have a 120" screen for instance, so yah it's a lot easier for me to see the smaller spikes because of the sheer giant size of my screen, and you also have to fly really low to see some spikes (like almost right on top of the ground).

Edited December 27, 2020 by Alpine Scenery

[Christian Bahr 55]

Nobody intends to prove otherwise. On the contrary. This is also about looking for a solution.

What if there are 3000 users against these 30 users who have no wrong terrain representation? It would be worth trying to explore possible directions by comparing settings (cache, graphics) 🙂

This statement is interesting:
(but some airports hide some tips because the developers include fixes, but it's not the addon).

If it became known how to include such corrections, not only would the users be happy to hear about them, but they would get a lot of recognition worldwide. How do you implement these "corrections"? We are very curious.

But asked again. What are your settings regarding the rolling cache?

[Christian Bahr 55]

On 12/25/2020 at 9:02 PM, lagaffe said:

Hi,

For those who know how to use an example of the SDK and QGIS 3 software, there is a method in order to create self-correction for your aberrations while waiting for Asobo to find a solution.

The post published by Henrikx on reddit.com three months ago :  

The howto to create yourself the good BGL : https://docs.takset.net/books/msfs/page/fixing-lake-elevation-data-with-osm-and-heightmaps.ths ago

Good exercices !

This is a good hint. I didn't even know that QGIS can be used to change the MSFS data. I will take a closer look at the corresponding section in the SDK when I get the chance.

Edited December 27, 2020 by Christian Bahr

[Alpine Scenery 1,609]

If there was a solution and it was only affecting some users, Asobo would have told us because it is directly impacting their sales (some users are quitting due to it). Yet, Asobo have stated the opposite, they have stated they are aware of the issue and there are some mesh issues. The cache settings are different on every PC, so which PC are you speaking of, I have multiple copies of the game as I have already stated.

We are speaking in theoreticals and suppositions that do not support any known evidence I have seen, so I can only speak in absolutes of what I know rather than in "fringe" cases that I've never seen. My cache settings are all over the place. My other designer is 75 miles away on a different Internet connection with fairly old hardware, and he sees the same spikes. We could go on and on, but I have seen ZERO evidence that anyone can see different spikes. There is a difference in the POP-IN and distance, but the spikes are still there.

Again, all those users from my sceneries and patches and all my own PC's and everything has always matched. There are always going to be people that claim to have no issues. And yes, before this update most of the Western US (and much of the cities around the world) were clean with no spikes, so you could fly in the Western US and never see a spike in your life, but there were still spikes if flying in more remote areas like the Eastern US Appalachians.

Where the spikes exist have changed (because Asobo updated the mesh, they even had a map showing they did), but the fact of whether or not they exist at all has not. Spikes and craters have always been there, I mean the BRAZIL hole made the news (CNN), and everyone had "the hole", it wasn't anyone's PC settings. So yes, AFIK, everyone has mesh issues, because it is the data Asobo is sending us. It is already known that Asobo fixed the hole, and has been working on other mesh issues, this isn't some client-side issue.

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by Alpine Scenery

[Biology 1,347]

7 minutes ago, Alpine Scenery said:

If there was a solution and it was only affecting some users, Asobo would have told us because it is directly impacting their sales (some users are quitting due to it). Yet, Asobo have stated the opposite, they have stated they are aware of the issue and there are some mesh issues. The cache settings are different on every PC, so which PC are you speaking of, I have multiple copies of the game as I have already stated.

We are speaking in theoreticals and suppositions that do not support any known evidence I have seen, so I can only speak in absolutes of what I know rather than in "fringe" cases that I've never seen. My cache settings are all over the place. My other designer is 75 miles away on a different Internet connection with fairly old hardware, and he sees the same spikes. We could go on and on, but I have seen ZERO evidence that anyone can see different spikes. There is a difference in the POP-IN and distance, but the spikes are still there.

Again, all those users from my sceneries and patches and all my own PC's and everything has always matched. There are always going to be people that claim to have no issues. And yes, before this update most of the Western US (and much of the cities around the world) were clean with no spikes, so you could fly in the Western US and never see a spike in your life, but there were still spikes if flying in more remote areas like the Eastern US Appalachians.

Where the spikes exist has changed, but the fact of whether or not they exist at all has not. Spikes and craters have always been there, I mean the BRAZIL hole made the news (CNN), and everyone had "the hole", it wasn't anyone's PC settings. So yes, AFIK, everyone has mesh issues, because it is the data Asobo is sending us.

 

That makes sense, I'm just curious... If the global mesh is streamed, what data used when there's no internet connection? Also, do spikes remain in offline mode?

[Alpine Scenery 1,609]

I didn't leave the game loaded so it forced me to update, so I don't know the exact way the cache or download updated or conflicted with the mesh. Regardless, just because one thing might happen because of X,Y,Z isn't even any indication of how something works because things can be downloaded in advance / fully cached / partial / activated later / CRC rejected / version rejected, and on and on. 

I'm not concerned with any of this because there is no evidence, and if I were to try to chase down every "fringe" case of trying to prove/disprove something on the Internet that wasn't fully accurate, well we'd all be here a very very long time.

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by Alpine Scenery

[CFIJose 5,485]

For someone to come here and claim that this is not a problem for a few is ludicrous. This is the reason why ASOBO keeps getting away with breaking the sim, payware aircraft, and freeware mods because customers are not screaming. All we can do is keep sending them our frustrations. They should know that we do appreciate the good that they do, but don't let them get away with their ineptitude. I'm tired of saying the same thing, but I'll continue until they get the sim right.