Any Brunner yoke users?

[BillStewart 3]

Hi, I'm considering purchasing the Brunner Yoke (Not sure which one) and possibly the rudder pedals for MSFS 2020.  I can't seem to find much information on how well they work (probably because they are so expensive, very few users have them).  If anyone has them and are using them in the sim, are there any features that aren't working (i.e.  yoke moves when aircraft is climbing/turning on A/P, realistic trimming (no pressure on yoke), wind/turbulence feel?

I sold my CH Yoke/pedals a couple of months ago and have been waiting for MSFS 2020 to mature somewhat before buying it along with new flight controls.  I've previously been using P3D v4 but have been away from it for a while.

Thank you for any feedback you can provide.

Bill

 

[regis9 4,013]

Hi Bill, there are a few of us here, @TravelRunner404 also has some Brunner gear.  I have the CLS-E NG, it generally works well in MSFS but there are a few settings that need to be disabled.  I’d suggest reading through this post at the Brunner forums for more information:

https://forum.brunner-innovation.swiss/forums/topic/1695/

There are two areas I’ve had issues with.  

The first is that I could not get it to work with the WT CJ4 mod.  Speaking with the WT team on this it looks like because the yoke introduces movement when autopilot is engaged it’s causing issues with the CJ4 autopilot.  The result for me was a steep bank until loss of control when engaging the autopilot.  There may be a fix for this by fiddling around in the settings but I haven’t explored this much yet as I simply switched to my warthog joystick instead for that aircraft.  The only other aircraft I’ve seen similar behaviour with was the Milviz King Air in P3D.

The second is that I’ve had mixed results using the feature where the elevator on non-hydraulic aircraft would droop until enough airspeed had built up to bring the elevator to neutral on the takeoff roll.  This worked great in P3D but it makes the aircraft nose over during the takeoff roll in MSFS with the stock settings.  I’m guessing it’s a difference in the flight models between the two sims and it seems the aircraft are aerodynamically impacted by the drooped elevator prior to the airspeed forcing it into a neutral position.  I’ve tweaked some settings to make it work better, but ultimately I mostly keep it turned off because it introduces some annoyances during takeoff and landing.  Not saying it can’t be made to work necessarily but it will take more fiddling.

Unfortunately Brunner has not been very helpful in figuring this stuff out, the responses I’ve gotten are mainly to play with the settings myself, which is a below the level of support I’d expect given the cost of these.  I found that surprising actually, given how good their support was in dealing with a shipping issue I ran into - UPS damaged the unit when delivering to me, Brunner paid to have it overnighted from Canada to their location (Switzerland I think?) and had the new one to me within a few days.  Quite impressive given the distance covered.

Ultimately, I admit I have a love/hate relationship with my Brunner yoke in MSFS and there are times I wish I had bought the more simple Yoko+ instead.  Having said that (and I feel bad that most of this post has been negative), if you’re willing to fiddle with the settings, the immersion the yoke brings when hand flying GA is second to none.  Given the difference in price between a Yoko+ and Brunner CLS-E NG is not significant I would buy the Brunner yoke again.

Edited December 29, 2020 by regis9

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

I use a FFB2 and agree that FFB makes a massive difference in GA aircraft. Things like holding a steady attitude with stick/yoke and adjusting the forces out with trim instead of pretty much flying with trim the way people do with a non FFB device is just one example.

BUT there is a catch22 with manufacturers not supporting FFB as the licencing fees are high and most sims do not support FFB that well --- and the games not supporting FFB as there are not many FFB manufacturers,  basically all that is currently about is professional expensive stuff like the Brunner or really really ancient devices like my MS FFB2 (even though there are stacks of FFB devices for stuff like car racing) . 

Hopefully it will change.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Glenn Fitzpatrick

[SloMo 5]

My last FFB-experiances were with the MS FFB-Joystick in FS9, and since then i mised the FFB.  Changed from Saitek-Yoke to the Honeycomb-Alpha which is a great device.

 

But whenever it comes to the "feeling" during flight, i had to remember, that it is allways the same rubber-rope i am fighting against...

 

Beeing i sim-racer for years now, owning a fanatec-wheelbase, i really know, what FFB is worth for, and i decided to build up a FFB-system for flight-simulator, based on the circuit-boards of Ian Hopper ( BFFsimulation.com )

 

I bought a T-rudder from Thrustmaster, and motorized this from behind, letting the Rudder device 100% unchanged, and build up a yoke, using sheet-metal-parts and laser-cutted sheets, with only a minimum of milled or 3D-printed parts.

Yoke ends up with 18kg, and for now, it is working without any fixation, using 6 soft rubber-pads as bases.

The yoke handle is build of 30x1,5mm stainless-stell-tube, tube-laser,cutted, bended and welded, with 2x3 buttons on the top ends of the handle.

 

I had the maiden flight on Monday and i am totaly flashed yet about the function, the forces and the precision of this stuff !!

 

Until now, i just tryed 4 planes and tried to find matching configurations, but even this has been great fun. I am excited about the next hours of using it, and if some problems with my design may occur, but until now, everything is really fine.

Ians software is using FSUIPC as link to the simulators, and a tested with P3Dv4 ( C185 and C207 ) and MFS ( Cup and C172 ), both simulations worked well !  The great ammount of possible options for force-generation and trimming-systems give a good hint about the experiance, Ian allready has with this systems and software. 

 

Great to feel the turbulences instead of only seeing them on the screen 🙂

 

My equipment has the same specifications as the "greater" Brunner one in terms of torque and travel, and i have some sets of the mechanical parts available, because i didn´t make sense, to build up only one set of the sheet-metal parts.

I am very happy with my decision, to use the Thustmaster-rudder, because the ergonomics of this one are really great, compared to the Saitek-rudder i used before. I like those swinging, top-mounted pedals a lot !

 

FFB rulez  🙂

 

SloMo

 

I will provide some pictures, after my next test-flights...

Edited December 30, 2020 by SloMo

[skipph 82]

Give the Fulcrum a look. Very high quality for half the YOKO. price.

[BillStewart 3]

I appreciate the responses, I have gone to the Brunner website and read through the forums.  I noticed that there isn't a whole lot of timely responses (if any) from Brunner regarding questions/problems people are experiencing.   I had also emailed them weeks ago asking if there were issues with their products and MSFS 2020. I never received a response.  The lack of support from them definitely makes me uneasy, especially considering what these products cost and the fact there is no cheap and easy way to return them if you aren't happy.  I've also considered the Yoko plus/rudders as I've read many positives on those.  But, as you said, they are "relatively" close in price to the Brunner stuff, but lacks FFB.   I just don't know what to do at this point.

[TravelRunner404 596]

So, yeah, I will never understand the poor support on their forums and lack of overall communication.  It’s frustrating, especially considering they are well engineered products.

I asked a few questions in the forums and relied on the online profiles for quite awhile, but finally I took a weekend during quarantine to figure out exactly how this thing works. 
 

Essentially there are three main features. Force Feedback is number one. Then you have it’s ability to position with trim and finally autopilot movement.  That’s really it. There are a few small options like ground vibrations, engine vibrations, stick shaker. Okay, maybe stick shaker is a cool feature bc you feel that stall.  What I have learned is mostly around making the force feedback system work to my liking.  Trim functions and autopilot functions don’t work in MSFS right now. I turn them all off. It’s not worth the headache.

The force feedback function will still make things like trimming feel more realistic. In fact most of the things people complain about with the flight model feeling erratic aren’t present with the Bruner yoke and force feedback.  Sebastian eluded to this in a video. When you use a yoko, saitek, or honeycomb yoke, you can simply pull back on the stick and boom 4,000 VFPM even if you are going 300kts. Everyone blames the sim but in real life you’d tear your arms or the yoke out doing that.

Now, the Brunner seems overly complicated bc every plane is different. They advertise the idea that you can make this thing feel and act like any GA aircraft in existence. Great, but it would be helpful if they catered to the market a little better and made some profiles based on sim products to deliver that and update them over time. They don’t. For most people you are left downloading the few, often old, profiles they have and just going with it. The software is capable but what do I know about the CJ4 force feedback or TBM900?

However, it’s actually not difficult to come up with your own profiles and have a good time.  Basically, the yoke will increase tension as IAS increases.  For example the WT CJ4.  It has a top IAS of 300kts (please don’t hold me to these I am guessing as I type on the phone).  I can go into the CLS2Sim software and adjust the tension curve to my hearts desire to get the yoke to feel exactly as the CJ4 would at different speeds up to 300kts.  You can plot it with points or use a simple exponential curve.  I did a couple flights and balanced the curve to my liking.  Needless to say hand flying is brilliant and feels awesome now.  As I trim I can feel the tension come out of the yoke. I can also make reasonable movements and feel the aircraft. The profile makes landing or flying a departure feel so much better.  Is it accurate to the real CJ4? Doubtful, bc I have never flown one, nor do I have specs.  Is it more accurate to real world flying than a cheaper yoke, I think so.  There is a good TBM profile and a good c172 profile that look as if some flight schools have put a lot of thought into the curve. If you take the FFB curve and turn off the options not working in MSFS they are very useful.

The other thing with FFB is hydraulics. In some aircraft you have hydraulics so FFB isn’t as big of a deal.  I am sure these systems are complicated and a 737 yoke won’t feel like a honeycomb bc the hydraulics take the tension out.  There is an option to turn on the hydraulics and adjust the affect.  As in real life the tension is different for every aircraft.  I fly the a320 with the yoke, which is terrible, awful I know, but I turn on hydraulics and adjust the force on a simple percentage scale and it flies wonderfully but doesn’t feel like a c172.  It feels like an aircraft with hydraulic controls.

That was long but that’s my summary of getting to a place in MSFS where I am getting some great use of this.  Was it worth the cost? Well the money is already spent for me, and I don’t think I can ever go back to no FFB. 

 

 

[regis9 4,013]

Great info, agreed on the force needed when flying at higher speeds (hand flying some fast non-hydraulic aircraft for long periods of time can actually be a bit hard on the arms).  That’s a really cool immersion factor that also keeps me from pulling unrealistic manoeuvres.  

Your comments on the profiles are bang on.  I basically use the ones that are provided are use the closest one to the aircraft I’m flying...I’ve tweaked a few here and there but that’s generally what I do.  I agree though that it would be fantastic if a brunner themselves were more active in creating common profiles.

Would you be willing to share what you’ve done (actually as I type this I wonder is that possible outside of the profile database they have?)

Also curious what setting you used to get the modded CJ4 to work with the Brunner yoke...as noted above I kept getting death spirals with the autopilot on.

To Bill, it certainly is a tough call and I’d share the worry over the lack of responsiveness/forum activity.  But on balance I too would have a hard time going back to non FFB controls.

[TravelRunner404 596]

Yep, I figured out there are profile files in one of the brunner folders. Another thing they don’t mention. I built a new PC and had to figure out how to transfer my profiles.

I’ll message you a Dropbox link when I get back to my PC later today.

 

[regis9 4,013]

Thanks!

[sluihn 68]

6 hours ago, BillStewart said:

I appreciate the responses, I have gone to the Brunner website and read through the forums.  I noticed that there isn't a whole lot of timely responses (if any) from Brunner regarding questions/problems people are experiencing.   I had also emailed them weeks ago asking if there were issues with their products and MSFS 2020. I never received a response.  The lack of support from them definitely makes me uneasy, especially considering what these products cost and the fact there is no cheap and easy way to return them if you aren't happy.  I've also considered the Yoko plus/rudders as I've read many positives on those.  But, as you said, they are "relatively" close in price to the Brunner stuff, but lacks FFB.   I just don't know what to do at this point.

As Brunner Owners we are a quiet bunch...  but there is no going back once you have had the experience, could be answer why were not so talkative too busy flying. Did 25 years with saitek yokes and rudders, the last 2 years have been a blast with the CLS-E Yoke and Rudder Pedals. Took simming to a new level especially if your pedals start rumbling cause your overspeeding the aircraft your flying. Yea, there are adjustments you need to do but this setup gave me as close to real life experience as i'm going to afford.  So i did it right with Brunner.

One thing when dealing with companies abroad,  they take longer vacations than us stateside,  sure it is true around the holidays.  Be patient

Well worth the investment

Steve

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

5 hours ago, regis9 said:

Great info, agreed on the force needed when flying at higher speeds (hand flying some fast non-hydraulic aircraft for long periods of time can actually be a bit hard on the arms).  That’s a really cool immersion factor that also keeps me from pulling unrealistic manoeuvres.  

It is also hard to forget to raise your gear on a FFB device, the stick/yoke soon reminds you  😄

[HUSSAR 272]

I have the CLS-E NG yoke and love it, agree their communication is somewhat spotty at best.  Stefan Brunner has released a number of profiles and most aircraft types are covered so you can copy/rename and edit his profiles to suit your needs.

You will have to create an account in order to download the CLS2Sim software at the Media/Software Download Page then after running the installer you have to navigate to the Bruner folder in Program Files (x86) and run the various sim plugin installers.  There isn't one for MSFS, rather it uses the FSX profile.  Before connecting you must launch the CLS2Sim.exe and select the FSX/MSFS radial but you cannot select the MSFS.exe MS/ASOBO have not given permission to do so.

Once the CLS2Sim software is active connect to the yoke and then initialize it.  Start MSFS and once in the flight screen head back to the desktop (Windows key) and press "Connect."

You should feel the FF effect then.

Good luck!

Rob

[LesNeilson 2]

Hi all, new Brunner CLS-E NG user here! I've only made a few flights so far, due to being on holiday, as well as the recent CTD epidemic, but last night I was at least able to complete a short flight without crashing out. Very impressed so far, and now I need a proper trim wheel as well... I mostly fly the TBM, and there's a profile for that, but also the Just Flight Arrows. Would the 172 profile be a good fit, or should I maybe convert the Archer profile?

Also, do most of you use the yoke switches for trim or the simulator interface? I was reading about this on the Brunner page

Les

Edited September 14, 2021 by LesNeilson

[regis9 4,013]

Hello, for the TBM there is a TBM profile you can download that I use for that aircraft.

For trim it varies depending on the aircraft, usually for lighter aircraft I find the yoke trim works well.