Any Brunner yoke users?

[conundrum 49]

License fees should be a non-issue. M$ held the patent for FFB joysticks.

As for rumble, the fees can’t have been that much, because small fish continued to produce rumble enabled controllers.

[RioPilot 99]

I have the Brunner CLS-E NG. It's obviously pricey, but in my opinion it brings the closest feeling to an actual aircraft (at least judging from my experience flying small GA aircraft).

I have 3 Brunner control profiles set up at the moment. One for light aircraft, another for heavier aircraft (like airliners and turboprops), and another specific to the Aerosoft CRJ. The profiles can be linked to each aircraft so that when you change aircraft, the Brunner profile automatically switches accordingly. I also use this in conjunction with SPAD for keymapping.

Overall, it just provides an excellent feeling of the forces involved in flight. Not a perfect replication, to be fair, but definitely better than something like the Saitek Yoke, which I used previously. For example, when flying a 172, letting go of the yoke on the ground results in it dropping forward due to the weight of the elevator. Then, when throttling up for takeoff, the controls stiffen as you feel the airflow go over the control surfaces. During stalls, you feel the mushiness of the controls. You'll also feel bumps in the air translate to slight movements in the yoke during flight (though honestly, I'm unsure if these are random impulses, or are actually a result of factors like wind/weather). When flying heavier aircraft with the other control profile, you'll get a heavier hydraulic control feeling. And all these profiles can also be customized and further fine-tuned to more closely match reality. You can also configure things like stall stick shakers, ground roll vibrations, and engine vibrations.

I briefly looked at the Brunner Rudder pedals, as well as their control stick. I can't justify buying either. Just too much cost involved. I have and use the Warthog HOTAS for aircraft with control sticks, and currently use the Saitek rudder pedals. I'm pleased with both, and while I may get new rudder pedals one day, I'm not sure I see the worth in getting force feedback ones.

[Skiff 9]

I have the CLS-E. I love it, but I don't know if I'd buy it again.

When it's configured properly, it's amazing. That said, it's a lot of work to get it configured correctly and keep it running with various Windows and other software updates. After I've had it disconnected for a while, I find myself reluctant to fly because it's a lot of effort to get it set back up.

In fact, I'm moving to a Honeycomb Alpha for "everyday" flying. Much easier to just start flying rather than spending an hour fiddling with configuration details.

[regis9 3,996]

2 hours ago, RioPilot said:

The profiles can be linked to each aircraft so that when you change aircraft, the Brunner profile automatically switches accordingly.

Is there a way to do that in the Brunner software?  I didn’t realize that, that would be really helpful.

2 hours ago, RioPilot said:

I briefly looked at the Brunner Rudder pedals, as well as their control stick. I can't justify buying either. Just too much cost involved. I have and use the Warthog HOTAS for aircraft with control sticks, and currently use the Saitek rudder pedals.

I came to the same conclusion except I went with the virtual fly pedals, I love them.

39 minutes ago, Skiff said:

I have the CLS-E. I love it, but I don't know if I'd buy it again.

When it's configured properly, it's amazing. That said, it's a lot of work to get it configured correctly

Though I love mine there are times I wish I had gone with the virtualfly yoko for ease of use.  If I had to do it all again what would I do?  Probably have a long and agonizing decision to make like I did the first time 🙂

[mikea76 184]

13 hours ago, LesNeilson said:

Hi all, new Brunner CLS-E NG user here! I've only made a few flights so far, due to being on holiday, as well as the recent CTD epidemic, but last night I was at least able to complete a short flight without crashing out. Very impressed so far, and now I need a proper trim wheel as well... I mostly fly the TBM, and there's a profile for that, but also the Just Flight Arrows. Would the 172 profile be a good fit, or should I maybe convert the Archer profile?

Also, do most of you use the yoke switches for trim or the simulator interface? I was reading about this on the Brunner page

Les

I have the CLS-E yoke, I modified a profile  to use with the arrow.  I like it, feels pretty close to me. I can try to upload it to the cloud or share it with you.

Edited September 14, 2021 by mikea76

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

I ended up going with a Fulcrum. The Honeycomb was a possible, but has limited elevator movement and is a bit pro-sumer and plastic and the Yoko looks excellent but only has 45 degree on the aileron axis .  The Fulcrum ticked all the boxes for a non FFB yoke (all metal including the handle, 8" aileron movement, 90 degrees each way on elevator).

However if MSFS actually supported proper FFB (they seem to think FFB is just for gimmicky stuff like wheel rumble and turbulence effects) I would definitely have budgeted the extra money for a Brunner.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Glenn Fitzpatrick

[RioPilot 99]

6 hours ago, regis9 said:

Is there a way to do that in the Brunner software?  I didn’t realize that, that would be really helpful.

 

Yep, if you select the profile and click the "Profile manager" button, you can Link the profile to the aircraft you have loaded up in the sim. If you do this for every aircraft, the profile will automatically change depending on the aircraft.

All in all, I don't personally find Brunner too cumbersome to use. Aside from the initial setup, it's only a matter of opening up the CLS2Sim application and initiating the yoke. Then connecting to the sim once the sim is loaded. A minor inconvenience to be sure, but nothing compared to my Prepar3d days, when it felt like I had to load up countless applications just to get things going. Like ActiveSky, and other 3rd party applications,

[MarkDH 234]

4 hours ago, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

Yoko looks excellent but only has 45 degree on the aileron axis

Yoko has 60 degrees (actually more like 65 if you measure it).

[jackdleach 11]

I got the CLS-NG and the rudder pedals a few months ago, absolutely love them.  There was an issue with a misconfigured hard-stop when I first set up it, but their support took care of me in good order.  I don't find the setup bad at all, after spending a day with all the initial stuff, my process is now just to hop into their software quick after loading the flight and connecting the sim.  No biggie.

Regarding their (lack of) support for specific configurations: might be worth keeping in mind that they're a motion solution company.  While that does include sims, their bread and butter is really in manufacturing automation, assembly chains, etc.  Their flagship simulation products are world-class and the yoke and rudder a general simmer like you or I can invest in is really drops in a bucket.  Which is to say, their expertise is in the hardware, which they do support, very (very) well.  I think they have a "when it comes to software config for your specific sim/plane, you're more or less on your own" approach, which I can sort of understand given that these are the only consumer-level products they have.  Not ideal, but... I consider it a fairly small investment of my own time (though I tend to stick to a relatively small handful of planes I'm currently flying in the real world).  I'm happy to deal with that myself, given that they're the only company making these types of products.

All in all, I love them and find them to be worth the investment.  Hopefully I can get many, many years out of them (I expect to).

(mounting took a bit, had to make up an adapter plate, but a 6mm sheet of polycarb and a few countersunk holes from each side matched it up fine)

Edited September 17, 2021 by jackdleach

[MarkDH 234]

25 minutes ago, jackdleach said:

"when it comes to software config for your specific sim/plane, you're more or less on your own" approach

Hearing that, it's hard to see this as anything other than a very expensive brick 😐

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

4 hours ago, MarkDH said:

Hearing that, it's hard to see this as anything other than a very expensive brick 😐

Not at all.

Even a fairly generic Force Feedback is vastly better than none at all. 

The fact that you can customise the feedback to exactly match your actual real life plane is a bonus not a downside. 

If your insisting that all flight controls are pointless unless they are a precise match to every plane you should throw your Yoke and pedals in the bin and go back to flying with a keyboard 😄

[MarkDH 234]

5 hours ago, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

Even a fairly generic Force Feedback is vastly better than none at all. 
The fact that you can customise the feedback to exactly match your actual real life plane is a bonus not a downside.

Customisation is all very well, but it depends what's available to customise. I would question whether 'generic' FFB adds very much, in my experience it really doesn't. FS Force was the state of the art when I tried out the Iris Dragonfly yoke a couple of years back and that really didn't add anything meaningful beyond trim and firming up the controls with speed. These added a little bit but neither was worth the extraordinary price of admission and it's a stretch to see how either of these could be considered 'vastly' better than non-FFB. It's worth reminding people that the 'affordable' Brunner yoke costs 20% more than the Yoko+ but has about the same pitch travel as a Saitek or Honeycomb yoke.

To me, what would add genuine value is an opportunity to really feel what's going on in the atmosphere (i.e. feedback). This would be simulating such things as gusts, turbulence and wind shear - and I mean really simulating them, not just rumbling the yoke like an XBox controller. Perhaps Brunner's CLS2Sim allows such things but I doubt it because such feedback needs to be intimately entwined with the simulator. It's really hard to get any concrete information on CLS2Sim and posts like the one I was commenting on, from actual users, are not encouraging.

[jackdleach 11]

1 hour ago, MarkDH said:

To me, what would add genuine value is an opportunity to really feel what's going on in the atmosphere (i.e. feedback). This would be simulating such things as gusts, turbulence and wind shear - and I mean really simulating them, not just rumbling the yoke like an XBox controller.

When I come in for a gusty crosswind, the yoke absolutely will jerk in my hand.  It's not just some vibration feedback... the yoke actually moves, varying amounts, with force, as it would in a real plane.  The rudders kick at your feet a bit. Albeit not as strongly as they would in a real life mountain valley landing with strong winds, but still - that's a massive jump into immersion and takes flight sim to the next level.  You actually have to hold the yoke in your hand and feet on the rudders in expectation of the movements and respond to them.  That's the difference.  You have do to the dance... the only thing more real would be if you could get the changes in inertia on your body as the winds kick the plane around the sky, but that's what the real air is for :)

As for customization, everything I just mentioned above is pretty much out of the box for the C182 that I do my IFR practice runs in.  I fired up an Extra for some acro fun once, but without a stick... meh.

If you're techy enough to know what the spec listing in your signature means, you're plenty well armed to handle setting this up.  Personally, I consider it a great investment of time for what it brings to the table.

(forgot to note: I use XPlane for my stuff, so the above is based on XP11, just today fired up MSFS again for the first time in a few months just to see something pretty, but I didn't really dive in, so to speak...)

Edited September 18, 2021 by jackdleach

[jackdleach 11]

I can put it another way:

On a realistic control feel scale of 1-10, 1 being keyboard, 10 being real flight: your standard band/spring resistance controls are probably sitting around a 2 or maybe 3.  Brunner gives me at least a 7, maybe 8.  You can tell it's simulation still, but it's a huge jump.

[MarkDH 234]

3 hours ago, jackdleach said:

When I come in for a gusty crosswind, the yoke absolutely will jerk in my hand.  It's not just some vibration feedback... the yoke actually moves, varying amounts, with force, as it would in a real plane.

Yes, if it really does that it's probably a lot more useful than generic FFB software.