How does one select an appropriate STAR/SID?

[Dave_YVR 968]

3 minutes ago, Noel said:

So now, which ATC program interacts best with in-sim air traffic, such that the experience best matches real-world conditions

Now that's a tough one that normally gets all sorts of opinions on. I personally don't use any as none of them are close to being good enough. There's also too many variances between countries/regions. One program might be ok for use in the US, but nowhere else and vise versa for Europe, and everywhere else around the world.

[Mace 1,902]

19 hours ago, Noel said:

I have been using LNM but did not know it had the capacity you you mention.  That's awesome thanks!

I'm not at my simrig but as I recall you can right click on an airport in the map view, and select something like "Show Procedures" and (assuming you have a close-to-default LNM window setup) in the upper right window LittleNavMap will give you a list of SID / STAR.  Then you can left-click on each SID/STAR procedure and it will graphically show it in the map view window.

19 hours ago, Noel said:

Also, can you explain why Navigraph matters?  I had an account years ago but left it unfunded since near as I could tell it offered nothing meaningful for how I was using flight simulator.

Having the Navigraph sub means that all my stuff is always updated with the same data, and it pretty well matches real world.  By "all my stuff", I mean, for example, not just the aircraft FMS's, but also Pilot2ATC, LittleNavMap, or even the ISG gauges if I'm flying the DC-10. It is neat how Navigraph is almost always accurate to real world.  I used to not have Navigraph, often I'd be trying to re-create a real-world route from FlightAware, and I had to manually make up the SID or STAR because I didn't have the info.

As to your question about ATC.  I can only speak to Pilot2ATC -- it does not interact with AI aircraft, which can be a problem at times, but it sure is good for offline ATC for your aircraft.  I just let the AI use the default ATC.  They don't know the difference.

[Noel 4,486]

7 hours ago, PATCO LCH said:

I use the Aviasoft Electronic Flight Bag for charts. Not as detailed as Navigraph but more than enough for sim purposes. I keep it updated with Navigraph ARAC updates. You can look at departure and arrival procedures quickly and choose the best on, off procedures for your route. You can use it for flight planning or import your flight plan from other sources such as Simbrief. It does have a moving map as well as taxi charts and best of all it is a one time purchase rather than an expensive subscription you have to keep paying every month. I have used about three years and am very satisfied. Probably over 90% of my simming is jet liners.

This sounds like it might be pretty straightforward for me esp if it doesn't require a lot of maintenance.  Do they have plans to integrate w/ MSFS at some point?  I like to keep the number of add-ons stripped down as able.

OK I see it already connects w/ MSFS in limited fashion.  I will try the 30d trial n see.  Thanks!

 

**Do you know if you have to keep the AIRAC cycles up to date in order to maintain basic functionality?  Here's what the installer states:

"The AIRAC Cycle supplied with the basic installation is not the most recent one, however it is included to provide full functionality of EFB. You are free to update the AIRAC Cycle by one of the two Data providers presently offering this service:

Aerosoft GmbH: http://www.aerosoft.com, product name "NavDataPro" Navigraph KB: http://www.navigraph.com, product name "FMS Data""

If I can avoid subscribing to the 28 day updates I'd rather if possible.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Noel

[emko 15]

The real competitor of Navigraph is NavDataPro from Aerosoft, not FsAerroData. I haven't tried NavDataPro so take my comment with a grain of salt 🙂 . NavDataPro gets their data from Lufthansa. I like their (Lufthansa) charts and approach plates more because they are prettier to look at and easier to read. There was a problem in the past (back in the olden days when even Navigraph had their data from Lufthansa) that many airport were missing or were hopelessly out of date - Lufthansa was not providing data for airports where none of their real world customers flew to, they had IFR data only (obviously) and they didn't list approach minima for category A and B aircraft because most of the airliners are C or D (BTW Boeing 777 is D, when lightly loaded and therefore flying at a slow approach speed, it makes it to category C). Whereas Navigraph nowadays use data from Jeppesen which provides data truly world-wide (even for those obscure no-go areas like Pyongyang). Navigraph gets only IFR data from them, they don't get VFR data (Jeppesen provides them but for a pretty hefty surcharge and if the country itself does not publish good VFR data, Jepp people can't give you what they don't have). Since I am a long-time user of Navigraph, I would advise to get that, if you want current charts and navigational data. But I can't really criticize NavDataPro because I haven't tried it.

FsAeroData is a separate program which uses your Navigraph subscription to update FSX/P3D database with current navigational data. I have it but its real utility is limited. You could have an aircraft using a default GPS and you want to be able to use the latest DB, then it can be for you (e.g. Vertx DA64 use the default database, Aerosoft DHC-6 Twin Otter or A2A aircraft without Flight1 or RealityXP GPS addons can use both FSX default GPS and P3D default GPS (with SIDs and STARs support) and you want to have the latest navaids etc). I sometimes tune a VOR, a DME or an NDB by hand so I appreciate having the updated DB.

If you are OK flying with the default FSX/P3D database, which is somewhere from year 2005 or 2006, I'd probably check some internet sources whether I could get charts from that era. The AIRAC cycles (in oversimplified English, the navaid db versions) are in format YYMM where YY is a year and MM is roughly a month (it's some 28 calendar days or so - the current is 2014 (valid from 31st Dec 2020 to 27th Jan 2021) and year 2020 didn't have 14 months ... luckily 😄; exact dates are listed here: https://www.nm.eurocontrol.int/RAD/common/airac_dates.html ). So if you get charts for any AIRAC number between 0501 and 0613 it might be the best option. It's the era before stuff like mandatory RNAV in Europe or Free Route Airspace or LPV approaches and things like that so if you have charts a year newer or older than in FSX it might not be the end of the world.

[Noel 4,486]

Guys/gals this is important to me for this:  is there much/any real risk of corrupting the internal dbase's in P3D and MSFS such that a reinstall of either sim may need to happen?   I detest fixing broken sims, did it in the past with this and that over the decades, and have retired from fixing broken installations from installing software that isn't fully matured and bullet proof.  I'm still using purchased FSUIPC v5, and see I have to upgrade that to run the Aviasoft EFB 2.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Noel

[SAS443 1,714]

8 hours ago, emko said:

If you are OK flying with the default FSX/P3D database, which is somewhere from year 2005 or 2006

Thats not entirely true for Prepar3d V5. It is updated in some areas and vastly improved! 🙂 But not complete compared to Navigraph or Navdatapro.

 

9 hours ago, emko said:

It's the era before stuff like mandatory RNAV in Europe

Mandatory B-RNAV was introduced in April 23 of 1998 😉 B-RNAV has since been replaced with the term RNAV 5, which is required when operating on ATS routes in all(?) countries in EASA at least. 

[emko 15]

2 hours ago, SAS443 said:

Mandatory B-RNAV was introduced in April 23 of 1998 😉

Sorry, didn't realize that. My country (Czechia) had a useable conventional ATS route (W32) until 2013 or so and it connected all IFR airports here (though not efficiently, it was a relic of the communist era where military "owned" the airspace and civilian traffic was tightly controlled).

Hm ... digging deeper into that topic, it looks like I was completely wrong. Sorry 🙂

Can you fly B-RNAV using VOR/DME? From the definitions I dug out it seems that yes. Then it all would start to make sense to me again. From 1998 to 2013 you could use some ATS routes using VOR/DME, DME/DME or GNSS (or some IRU) equipment, which is B-RNAV. VOR/DME or DME/DME is of course too imprecise to be used for P-RNAV, which is mandatory now.

Edited January 7, 2021 by emko

[ARCO 245]

13 hours ago, Noel said:

If I can avoid subscribing to the 28 day updates I'd rather if possible.

You dont need to subscribe beyond one update if you wish, Aivlasoft EFB will remain fully operational regardless of the database.

It is by far the cheapest and most efficient flight preparation (not flight planning) software using a special link to Simbrief that will automatically load your flight plan, then selecting your SID and STAR as needed, you may - if you wish - save the final flighplan to P3D with the departure all set, ATC will not interfere and will let you do your plan routing.

The trial period will convince you and support is friendly and responsive.

[SAS443 1,714]

50 minutes ago, emko said:

Can you fly B-RNAV using VOR/DME? From the definitions I dug out it seems that yes.

Yes you can,  When you file an IFR-plan PBN codes (field 18 of the flightplan) B3 (DME-DME) or B4 (VOR/DME) are targeted to these kind of equipments.

But I'd wager most are using GNSS supplemented by low orbit EGNOS/WAAS satelites

I use an old GNS430 IRL, and that old junk is certified to "RNP Approach LNAV" 

[Noel 4,486]

On 1/7/2021 at 4:48 AM, Jean-Claude said:

You dont need to subscribe beyond one update if you wish, Aivlasoft EFB will remain fully operational regardless of the database.

It is by far the cheapest and most efficient flight preparation (not flight planning) software using a special link to Simbrief that will automatically load your flight plan, then selecting your SID and STAR as needed, you may - if you wish - save the final flighplan to P3D with the departure all set, ATC will not interfere and will let you do your plan routing.

The trial period will convince you and support is friendly and responsive.

Thank you PATCO & Jean-Claude for the nudge.  I'm using the trial version now and I like the layout it's just complicated enough!  I think I must not have updated the PMDG 777's dbase as the SIDS/STARS only partially matched what was present in Aivlasoft's EFB 2.  I will go back and see if there is another step I missed in setup.

Cheers!

[Noel 4,486]

Help me here plz.  I used the dbase builder and did all steps, but I'm guessing the reason the PMDG 777's FMS has a different set of navaids, SIDS/STARS than what was included in the base package of EFB2.  If so, I guess there is no other solution beyond updating data in the 777 and EFB2 w/ the same set of data, yes?  

So if I only want a relatively fixed set of FMS data (e.g., maybe plan to update once a year), don't need 'charts' per se, and the data set is identical in PMDG 777 and Aivlasoft EFB, which one of these packages do I need?  I'm guessing hopefully just the one for EUR 8.30 so I can do one update in both entities, yes?  Thanks!

Thanks!

Edited January 9, 2021 by Noel

[ARCO 245]

Yes Noel, go for the one-month subscription, make sure you use the (free) FMS Manager from Navigraph, select all add-ons that can be updated (EFB v2 and PMDG all planes will be among them), update the AIRAC, after doing the Navigraph download and when starting it for the first time, EFB v2 will ask you to update the database, select the correct folders (depends of which sim you run) as indicated in the manual, it will take some time and you will have your new database on all your add-ons with similar SID and STAR.

Please make sure the trial version of EFBv2 allows an AIRAC update, I never used it so I cannot certify that, but assuming it does, the above procedure is valid.

[emko 15]

Yes, I second the one month option.

When you get it, you can go to a link https://navigraph.com/account/downloads/fmsdm and manually download the data (including ones for Aivlasoft EFB). So you will have a backup when you cancel the subscription.

 

[mikeymike 357]

On 1/6/2021 at 2:33 PM, Dave_YVR said:

It's actually very common to not even file a SID,  and even if you do it gets striped out in processing prior to reaching ATC (especially at the busier airports). ATC will then assign what is appropriate when you get for your clearance/PDC.

Does the same rule apply for STARS in the real world?

cheers

mike

[Dave_YVR 968]

26 minutes ago, mikeymike said:

Does the same rule apply for STARS in the real world?

No, the STAR is left in unless it is incorrect which would then get replaced by the correct one and issued in the initial clearance or changed while in-flight being a dynamic environment.