should you include SID/STAR in your flight plan?

[captain420 3,099]

I am using Little Navmap to create my flight plans. I am doing KLAX-KSFO. I fly offline without ATC.

So is it okay to include the SID/STAR/APPROACH in my flight plan? Or will this mess up when I load the flight plan into sim? I will be flying the FBWA32NX.

Edited January 26, 2021 by captain420

[willy647 193]

Don't know. Try it out. It will take you 10 min to find out.

[FilbertFlies 980]

SimBrief includes SIDs & STARs in its exported flight plans, and these load fine into MSFS from the world map screen. As long as LNM's export feature isn't buggy, you should be fine.

On tip though - if you want to change the departure point from a runway to a gate from the World Map, make sure you choose it from the drop down list rather than by clicking on a spot on the map itself, or it'll totally recalculate your flight plan.

[IRLATC 31]

IRL the star is assigned by ATC, usually when you enter the FIR where your destination airport is. This makes sense as runway in use can change after a traffic has departed its departure airport. In the sim, stars are assigned very late. IRL pilots need to brief on the assigned STAR and runway in use. If you are flying without ATC, you can enter the STAR and approach procedure in the FMS from the beginning. The worst scenario you can encounter is a strong tailwind in the chosen runway and you can always change that.

[787flyer 633]

The disadvantage I see is by loading in the current SID and STAR in, you are assuming they remain that way for the entire duration of the flight and of course in the RL world and I guess this can occur in the online ATC world also, that these can change especially due to ATC traffic considerations, weather changes , etc.

Therefore, my preference has been to have Simbrief generate the route using the enroute waypoints only. All I do is remove the SID and/or STAR from the route if it has them before generating the final OFP for download.

 

This also enables a little more flexibility for the OFP to be loaded into the FMS/FMC with fewer alterations since the SID/STAR can be selected there directly, but also can be copied into the SEC PLN and adjusted for alternative SIDs and STARS and runways.

 

[ryanbatc 12,774]

5 hours ago, IRLATC said:

IRL the star is assigned by ATC, usually when you enter the FIR where your destination airport is. 

Maybe in Europe.  In US it's normal to have pilots file the SID and STAR.

[Space Monkey 24]

Is there an potential issue with the inaccuracy? of winds in MSFS (I think there is a bug outstanding) , in other words external flight planners might calculate SID & STAR which wont necessarily be compatible to the live MSFS runways.

[SAS443 1,711]

1 hour ago, ryanbatcund said:

Maybe in Europe.  In US it's normal to have pilots file the SID and STAR.

thanks for this. I actually had No idea it was up to the pilot in the US. 

 

[duckbilled 310]

9 minutes ago, SpaceMonkey said:

Is there an potential issue with the inaccuracy? of winds in MSFS (I think there is a bug outstanding) , in other words external flight planners might calculate SID & STAR which wont necessarily be compatible to the live MSFS runways.

This is why accurate weather depiction and nav data is so important. SImbrief, the sim, moving map, and charts must have the exact same information. If the default planner was a good as Simbrief, there wouldn't be any issues, but I never expected it to be good enough and I don't think MS/AS designed it to be as good. It would be nice, however, if the developers embraced improvements for those who want them. Why they didn't just use Navigraph is completely lost on me. The only explanation I can see is the contract with NavBlue may have given them additional access to Airbus data for the Neo's development. The initial state of the Neo really doesn't support that theory, however.

Anyway, I create flights in Simbrief and import them into the FBWA320's CDU and into the Navigraph charts. What I see in the CDU doesn't contain runways, departures, approaches or arrivals. In Charts, however, I can see the SID, STAR, departure, and landing runways. The only thing I have to figure out is the approach. Since I am not a RW pilot, I find the last step challenging sometimes. Sometimes it works out well, but there are lots of situations where the CDU is missing transitions that I see listed in Charts.

Also with the STAR's, I've seen them import in the wrong spot (after the arrival airport), and I've also seen the aircraft skip the entire STAR even when the waypoints are listed in the correct order.

 

[IRLATC 31]

2 hours ago, ryanbatcund said:

Maybe in Europe.  In US it's normal to have pilots file the SID and STAR.

How do they manage runway in use changes and traffic congestions?

It is a very different way to do things, I am sure they have to have a way to deal with this.

[LRBS 943]

7 hours ago, IRLATC said:

IRL the star is assigned by ATC, usually when you enter the FIR where your destination airport is. This makes sense as runway in use can change after a traffic has departed its departure airport. In the sim, stars are assigned very late. IRL pilots need to brief on the assigned STAR and runway in use. If you are flying without ATC, you can enter the STAR and approach procedure in the FMS from the beginning. The worst scenario you can encounter is a strong tailwind in the chosen runway and you can always change that.

IRL based on wx forecast for DEP and ARR, airport restrictions (preferred noise restrictions during day or night operations etc) we (or dispatch) will incorporate SIDS and STARS part of the FPL domestic or international. There are so many preferred departures and arrivals. Some airports actually have specific guidance on departures and arrivals either on Jepp pages or AIP.

In our days, chances of a SID or a STAR change other than preferred (or correct filled) are maybe 10% due to whatever reasons (unforeseen as we call it). 

Also as you mentioned, IRL we get ATIS via ACARS before TD and verify rwy in use to asses if there might be STAR change, even before the IFR crossing if is the case.

The most critical situation is where small airplanes can't carry enough fuel and if you didn't take in consideration all the factors during a correct preflight, you might find yourself in a situation where fuel might get critical even before departure.

As a IRL note, if ATC will change a star "late" as you mentioned as sometimes happens (5%), we just reject the STAR and request vectors. Some stars are complicated and need extensive briefing and compliance with speeds, restrictions, re-programing the FMC, etc and at a certain time is not possible unless you hold, set it properly and brief. Not to be miss-understood, this is not a fight with ATC, let them vector you versus problems.

[ryanbatc 12,774]

4 hours ago, ryanbatcund said:

Maybe in Europe.  In US it's normal to have pilots file the SID and STAR.

Just one thing to add...again in the US - sometimes ATC will assign a different one depending on flow (air traffic volume or delay programs).  Hah I meant to quote the ATC guy (I'm also one) but quoted myself.

Edited January 26, 2021 by ryanbatcund

[Chock 17,769]

4 hours ago, ryanbatcund said:

Maybe in Europe.  In US it's normal to have pilots file the SID and STAR.

This is because of Eurocontrol more than anything else. Their decisions affect a lot of airport operations, such as slots over European mainland airspace, so you'll sometimes have airliners sat on the deck at the gate in the UK, waiting for slots to open up in Europe before they'll get a clearance from ATC, as this stuff filters down from Eurocontrol.

The reverse of this here in the UK, is that aeroplanes coming out of mainland European airspace to the UK can never really be certain which runway will be in use at their destination, not least because anyone who know the UK knows the weather can be fairly changeable. So whilst it's fair to say that the prevailing winds over the UK are mainly westerly, which means most of the time you'll be using runway 27 or perhaps a runway thirty degrees either side of that depending on the airport, but you still can't really know which of two parallel runways (for example at Heathrow or Manchester) you will be sent to, because they get cleaned, blocked, repaired, de-iced etc, from time to time. sometimes this means that there is a definite single runway operation bit to the ATIS which clarifies things a bit, but it only takes a minor incident for this to change, or some nav aid to conk out or whatever, so it's no guarantee.

Because of this, you're more likely to get an ACARs message telling you which runway is in use when you get a bit nearer the destination, so then you would know what STAR was being used and they'd probably tell you that too. Same with SIDs really, they want to point all the aeroplanes at the same jumping off points, so you pretty much get told which one you are using for those as well.

Having said that, in practice it's not like they pick a different one every day just to be annoying, the chances are for scheduled flights they'll use maybe two or three different ones most of the times, so for crew who are used to flying those routes, it's not really a major issue. You can see this if you spend any time watching planes land and depart from a major airport in the UK, they'll pretty much all route in and out the same way and until they get over a specific nav aid or reporting point. At Manchester when it comes to landing, most of the time for stuff coming in from mainland Europe it's basically fly along the Pennines and turn left at Stockport when you've got the ILS signal for 23 and that's about as complicated as it gets for many airlines. 🤣

[Gerwil 177]

I'm using Simbrief and I found that when ATC assigns another runway and departure it automatically changes it in the G3000. Today at ENBR my plan had RW35 but I got cleared for RW17 and another SID. In the G3000 I only had to click 'Load'. I'm not having any assists on I believe.

[Jeff Nielsen 1,385]

For sim purposes, even on VATSIM, go ahead and file both.  Even in the EU.  Simbrief does a fairly good job with assignments.  If ATC is online and they need to change your SID or STAR they'll do so in plenty of time.  

I've flown a lot of EU on VATSIM and never had a STAR change while descending or while in the approach environment.

IRL operations don't really matter much, because of the top down structure on the network. The network's needs will be different from what's happening IRL 99.9% of the time.  There will still be some sort of tribal knowledge in certain areas, but you'll learn those with experience.  The EU is a lot easier to fly in, IMO, because most SID/STARs and approaches are mostly runway dependent.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Jeff Nielsen