TBM930 Performance Envelope WAY OFF at Cruise Since Update

[RandallR 444]

Before the update the TBM930 was, in some areas, very close to the actual performance listed by the manufacturer in the POH.  At an altitude of FL280 for instance, the POH recommends 100% Torque (I used 96%) which should result in an IAS around 213 KTS and a TAS of around 320... and that's about what I got.  This was a real pleasure to fly.

Now, after the update, cruise performance is WAY OFF.  I'm forced to pull the throttle WAY BACK in order to prevent over-speed/maneuvering speed infractions!  In order to operate safely, I am now running at 60% torque, so throttle setting for normal cruise is now off by 40%!  This has also dropped the airspeed below normal performance.  Also, I am unable to descend at normal speeds (230 - 250 KTS) - this is a performance area that the TBM is famous for.  I can only safely (according to the speed tape) operate in the 230 KT range on descent once in the low 20K or teens altitude range,

Needless to say, this really detracts from what used to be one of the best aircraft to fly.  Whether I take up the TBM930 default (or the TBM930 mod).  Both aircraft no longer function normally at cruise or descent.

[bean_sprout 1,201]

Feels good here with the latest mods.

Cheers

bs

[RandallR 444]

I'm running the latest mods.

Just to be sure, I ran the aircraft without the mods - cruise performance/torque are now the same.

[markk70 26]

13 hours ago, RandallR said:

Before the update the TBM930 was, in some areas, very close to the actual performance listed by the manufacturer in the POH.  At an altitude of FL280 for instance, the POH recommends 100% Torque (I used 96%) which should result in an IAS around 213 KTS and a TAS of around 320... and that's about what I got.  This was a real pleasure to fly.

Yes I agree. i've been alternating between this and the Hotstart TBM900 in X-Plane and the climbing and cruising performance was somewhat similar.

The approach and landing was different though, very floaty, too little drag and much too stable.

But now after the latest updates which were supposed to improve the flight dynamics , things have gotten much worse.

Edited March 14, 2021 by markk70

[wlix261 79]

I use the following MODS with MSFS2020 TBM9 which I replaced all with the latest version post MSFS 2020 update 1.14.50.

So far I am quite happy with performance and functionality (recognizing of course that there is always room for improvement):

1. MSFS TBM 930 Project 0.5.10 (Continue project)
2. TBM 930 Handling And Performance Mod
3. Working Title G3000
4. Daher TBM 930 Cockpit Livery - Black Beige

However, I noticed that at high altitude (say higher than FL200 or so) I get max speed limit indication (red stripes in air speed gauge) at a lesser value than before ( say 212 KIAS), compared ( I think) with before at about 230 or so. 

Is this normal? if not, what MOD should one follow-up with author for changes ? ( Mod 2... or Mod 1) above?

AHS712D Alvaro Escorcia KSGR

AirHispania virtual Airline

Edited March 14, 2021 by wlix261

[RandallR 444]

I use the TBM930 Improvement Mod Current Version v0.5.11.  I also use the great WT g1000 mod.  As far as I know, the Mugz mod is the best one out there right now for this aircraft  If you haven't tried this mod, you can find it at: 
https://flightsim.to/file/8288/tbm930-improvement-mod

I would be careful about combining mods from different authors (for systems/handling characteristics).  I would guess that the cockpit livery would not be an issue (I'll have to try it out).

On your high altitude speed note, this is exactly the issue I was talking about.  No - this is not proper.  You should be able to run at 100% torque and indicated speed at FL280 should be around 213 KTS with TAS around 320 KTS!  This is where it used to run.  Now we have to pull torque way back in the 60% region to stay our of the barber pole - we also can't do a proper high speed descent anymore.

 

[sluflyer06 32]

15 hours ago, RandallR said:

Before the update the TBM930 was, in some areas, very close to the actual performance listed by the manufacturer in the POH.  At an altitude of FL280 for instance, the POH recommends 100% Torque (I used 96%) which should result in an IAS around 213 KTS and a TAS of around 320... and that's about what I got.  This was a real pleasure to fly.

, I am now running at 60% torque, so throttle setting for normal cruise is now off by 40%!  This has also dropped the airspeed below normal performance.  

Your statements are entirely contradicting.

 

Pre-patch - 96% torque setting and TAS 320kts

POst-patch you get max speed at 60% torque before overspeed...yet you claim the aircraft is slower, however you're saying anything about 60% is overspeed meaning you are right below barber pole using less power.

 

Worse yet you are using overlapping mods that both claim to change the turbine torque to density altitude behavior.

[wlix261 79]

51 minutes ago, sluflyer06 said:

Your statements are entirely contradicting.

 

Pre-patch - 96% torque setting and TAS 320kts

POst-patch you get max speed at 60% torque before overspeed...yet you claim the aircraft is slower, however you're saying anything about 60% is overspeed meaning you are right below barber pole using less power.

 

Worse yet you are using overlapping mods that both claim to change the turbine torque to density altitude behavior.

I was also a bit confused as well and that's why I asked my question stating my MODS and observations of anomaly. 

In summary, we need to nail down (1) Whats the problem, and (2) whats causing it ( a MOD or the new Sim Version)....then one can write to notify either the MOD author or to zendedk for the Developers.

This should be relatively straighforward.... right?

AHS712D Alvaro Escorcia KSGR

AirHispania Visrual Airlines

[RandallR 444]

??

• No, I'm not using over-lapping mods
• Yes, I ran 96% for safety and that's what I would get under proper conditions. The POH gives that very speed at 100% Torque in the charts - I prefer to back it off a little as you would get over-torque warning fairly quickly (soon as she would hit 101%)
• "Over-speed" indicator is now way off - the aircraft is running at much slower IAS now when it hits the barber pole.  She used to run near book at 210.  Now I'm lucky to get 180-190.
• She now hits the warning track on descent (high altitudes) as low as 200 KTS - she used to run 230-250 on descent (which is proper performance) with good margin.

[RandallR 444]

8 minutes ago, wlix261 said:

I was also a bit confused as well and that's why I asked my question stating my MODS and observations of anomaly. 

In summary, we need to nail down (1) Whats the problem, and (2) whats causing it ( a MOD or the new Sim Version)....then one can write to notify either the MOD author or to zendedk for the Developers.

This should be relatively straighforward.... right?

AHS712D Alvaro Escorcia KSGR

AirHispania Visrual Airlines

That's why I ran a flight un-modded to see if it was a mod issue or default issue since the last update.  It's from the update - the un-modded aircraft had the same performance issues.

[sluflyer06 32]

22 hours ago, RandallR said:

??

• No, I'm not using over-lapping mods
• Yes, I ran 96% for safety and that's what I would get under proper conditions. The POH gives that very speed at 100% Torque in the charts - I prefer to back it off a little as you would get over-torque warning fairly quickly (soon as she would hit 101%)
• "Over-speed" indicator is now way off - the aircraft is running at much slower IAS now when it hits the barber pole.  She used to run near book at 210.  Now I'm lucky to get 180-190.
• She now hits the warning track on descent (high altitudes) as low as 200 KTS - she used to run 230-250 on descent (which is proper performance) with good margin.

So it's not right yet, but it doesn't look as bad as you say. I'm currently at FL280, full fuel, OAT -40C, no wind, standard day.  311kts TAS out of the red, 200kts indicated. The part that is wrong is I only need 76% torque for this which is too low.  However the TAS for the FL and where the red should be are on par with the POH.

 

On 3/13/2021 at 5:25 PM, RandallR said:

Before the update the TBM930 was, in some areas, very close to the actual performance listed by the manufacturer in the POH.  At an altitude of FL280 for instance, the POH recommends 100% Torque (I used 96%) which should result in an IAS around 213 KTS and a TAS of around 320... and that's about what I got.  This was a real pleasure to fly.

Now, after the update, cruise performance is WAY OFF.  I'm forced to pull the throttle WAY BACK in order to prevent over-speed/maneuvering speed infractions!  In order to operate safely, I am now running at 60% torque, so throttle setting for normal cruise is now off by 40%!  This has also dropped the airspeed below normal performance.  Also, I am unable to descend at normal speeds (230 - 250 KTS) - this is a performance area that the TBM is famous for.  I can only safely (according to the speed tape) operate in the 230 KT range on descent once in the low 20K or teens altitude range,

Needless to say, this really detracts from what used to be one of the best aircraft to fly.  Whether I take up the TBM930 default (or the TBM930 mod).  Both aircraft no longer function normally at cruise or descent.

 

[RandallR 444]

1 hour ago, sluflyer06 said:

So it's not right yet, but it doesn't look as bad as you say. I'm currently at FL280, full fuel, OAT -40C, no wind, standard day.  311kts TAS out of the red, 200kts indicated. The part that is wrong is I only need 76% torque for this which is too low.  However the TAS for the FL and where the red should be are on par with the POH.

 

 

Interesting - you're getting better performance than I am, though I've not tested high cruise with no wind.  I've had strong headwinds/crosswinds for every flight.  I've not been able to consistently go past 66% without going into the red.  Highest I've gotten on TAS is 300, though most of the time I don't even get to 290 now.  Yesterday I had a max of 239 TAS on one leg.  I'll chart out what I get in the next few flights - also, maybe the winds will die down a little.  🙂

As stated before, descent speeds are really slow in the upper FLs (staying out of the red), and approach is really out-of-whack... before she was pretty much on the recommended speed/torque settings for landing (except torque setting for the approach prior to gear and flap deployment was lower to maintain 150 KTS).  Now, I need to carry much higher thrust levels in order to maintain approach speed after full flaps.

[guibru 473]

On 3/14/2021 at 3:57 PM, RandallR said:

I use the TBM930 Improvement Mod Current Version v0.5.11.  I also use the great WT g1000 mod.  As far as I know, the Mugz mod is the best one out there right now for this aircraft  If you haven't tried this mod, you can find it at: 
https://flightsim.to/file/8288/tbm930-improvement-mod

I would be careful about combining mods from different authors (for systems/handling characteristics).  I would guess that the cockpit livery would not be an issue (I'll have to try it out).

On your high altitude speed note, this is exactly the issue I was talking about.  No - this is not proper.  You should be able to run at 100% torque and indicated speed at FL280 should be around 213 KTS with TAS around 320 KTS!  This is where it used to run.  Now we have to pull torque way back in the 60% region to stay our of the barber pole - we also can't do a proper high speed descent anymore.

 

hello,
I use this other mod with modification version 1.14.5.0 that you think. Should we use yours.

https://flightsim.to/file/3266/daher-tbm-930-flight-model-mod

[RandallR 444]

7 hours ago, guibru said:

hello,
I use this other mod with modification version 1.14.5.0 that you think. Should we use yours.

https://flightsim.to/file/3266/daher-tbm-930-flight-model-mod

I highly recommend the TBM930 Improvement Mod!  Also be sure to run the Working Title g3000 Mod!

I am not familiar with the version you've been running so the best way to compare them is to fly both (do not have both mods running at the same time - that will probably cause issues).  I use AddonsLinker to easily copy only the mods for the aircraft I'm flying.  Regardless, load both mods I note above (aircraft and Garmin) and nothing else and give it a go.  Then load just the previous mod and compare.

 

[sluflyer06 32]

8 hours ago, guibru said:

hello,
I use this other mod with modification version 1.14.5.0 that you think. Should we use yours.

https://flightsim.to/file/3266/daher-tbm-930-flight-model-mod

I don't think I'd trust a author who says mSFS doesn't model prop drag, Asobo made it a abundantly clear in a recent Q&A and included graphics that prop drag is absolutely modeled as props are seem as an airfoil in the air just like a wing, they did acknowledge that tuning needs to be done on a per plane basis to make it right however. Also read his notes carefully, there is no attempt at balanced flight model update, it's just hacked to make cruise at fl300 correct but nowhere else. Just my 2 cents.