Dumb Flight Plan Questions for Real Pilots

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

In some cases the runway you land on will be allocated by approach  when you arrive in the area and may well be changed once you get handed over to  ATC.

Sometimes it can change more than once, the video below is a classic example of how messy this can get with sometimes tragic consequences.

 

[Jetman67 517]

4 hours ago, Will Fly For Cheese said:

Nothing dumb about those questions whatsoever and well done for asking.

1) It's unlikely you'll know which Runway you will be arriving at - if you have any considerable distance to fly - as, you quite rightly observe - weather changes, and thus Runways.

Especially if you're taking a 777 from Frankfurt all the way to Narita, Japan - 10,000 miles and 11 hours later! But you'll get the "gen" if you tune the Airport ATIS from anywhere from 60 NM out.

2) Nope. However, depends on the level of ATC. See these videos for clarification of Levels of ATC.

 

3) Depends again; If you're in Radar controlled Airspace under full ATC then yes - they'll tell you where, at what height and what speed to fly.

BUT, remember, you're pilot in command so ultimately, ALL ATC is advisory - apart from if you're in Class D Airspace - in which case - do what you're told or else. Having said that; don't forget the power of being able to say; "Unable" - if you can't do THAT speed, or THAT HDG, etc.

Also,

I always refer young pilots back to this one; (It tells you everything that no-one did about how to go about Flying The Aircraft First and then everything else (including ATC) will follow naturally as part of your Flows.

American Airlines Chief Pilot shares the knowledge. You cannot watch this film too many times.

 

Brilliant video and definently a must watch

[sd_flyer 6,042]

17 minutes ago, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

In some cases the runway you land on will be allocated by approach  when you arrive in the area and may well be changed once you get handed over to  ATC.

Sometimes it can change more than once, the video below is a classic example of how messy this can get with sometimes tragic consequences.

 

In had this during one of mine CFI renewal courses. It's deeply of destruction and getting behind airplane - not really about runway allocation and messy thing.

This happens very often in my experience. I always teach my student do not be intimidated by ATC and able to say "unable". Or ATC for some space time to re-sequence. Cirrus is infamous for that kind situations, really say get behind fast airplane when one is slow 

[asnamara 15]

Great set of questions. And this may differ significantly depending on the airport and country. You cannot predict entirely what approach will be assigned to you. But you try plan ahead for likely weather forecast. There are countless other factors that need to be accounted for as well. Your aircraft may not have sufficient performance to carry out the published missed approach, at which stage you may be limited to certain approaches only. You can however agree with ATC on an alternative missed approach. Some places will vector you completely to intercept final approach, others will insist on you following the entire procedure including procedure turns etc. With experience you get to anticipate which approach a particular airport will give you for the given weather/runway in use. But it is by no means an exact science. The runway and approach used may sometimes change at the last minute due to passing storms or an other aircraft blocking a particular runway. Changing approaches on short notice on the FMS is the easy part. Briefing the approach is the more time consuming part, but I reckon it is crucial. Sometimes I will brief 2 approaches prior to descending especially if I suspect there will be a change. Make sure your charts are ready for all possible approaches to the airport and take as much time to configure the aircraft and brief the crew should there be a last minute change. Most importantly, ask for vectors or a hold if necessary until you can properly set yourself up. Nothing worse than a poorly briefed or half prepared approach.

[in2tech 588]

@enright These are really good questions. Just wondering if you are NEW to flight simulation or having been using flight simulation programs for awhile and just now need to know this info. This is a really good topic either way, and I am enjoying the information provided by others.

Have fun and enjoy learning! That also applies to me and I would think others too?

[enright 496]

55 minutes ago, Glenn Fitzpatrick said:

In some cases the runway you land on will be allocated by approach  when you arrive in the area and may well be changed once you get handed over to  ATC.

Sometimes it can change more than once, the video below is a classic example of how messy this can get with sometimes tragic consequences.

 

Good lord. I nearly had a panic attack just watching this. This would be my worst nightmare in the real world, and why I'm curious about the stress level when arrival instructions change. All of the responses in this thread are incredibly insightful and put it all into perspective and it's all starting to make sense: you plan the route from beginning to end with some well informed assumptions, but as a professional pilot, you are prepared for alternatives - and you usually have enough time to adapt well in advance.

[enright 496]

1 hour ago, Chock said:

You'll have a reasonably good idea from experience of normal operations, prevailing winds etc, however, there is no way to be absolutely certain. Some airports alternate their runway in use if they have more than one which is favourable for the wind at the time, or close one to allow the other to be cleaned or its equipment to be serviced, or they might use both, or they may favour one over another for some other last minute reason. However, the ATIS for most airports will tell you this and most airports (in Europe at least) are linked to a central control organisation which amongst other things, will allow you to find out which runway is in use at your destination as you plan, or when you depart, or whilst you are en-route. You can also get this information over systems such as ACARS from your airline, or service agent, or more modern alternatives to ACARS found on newer airliners such as the A220. You could also use the Volmet radio frequencies, which give you data for weather all over Europe and lots of other places around the world, including cloud coverage, winds etc, which would help you at least have a decent idea of which runway you'd be likely to be sent to and whether it could be a visual approach etc. This would let you stick the runway and STAR etc in your plan, but if it changes, it's not very hard to change it in the FMC, and many FMCs can store more than one route alternative too as a secondary plan and so on, allowing you to set up a few choices.

Holy cow - thank you for the incredibility informative response! This makes sense and you addressed something else I was curious about - the existence of "smart" flight planners that could take in real-time information - similar to the way automobile GPS apps can reroute you based on real-time weather. Sounds like some of the newer tools are getting there. 

Quote

For simmers yes, but for airliners and crews in the real world, no not really, that's the job of the dispatchers most of the time, since they are aware of what the aeroplane will be carrying, any restrictions (permanent or temporary) which can affect a route, what the crew and aeroplane can do legally etc, and where they want the aeroplane to end up if it has to divert and so on.

Okay - that definitely clears things up a bit. I was having a hard time understanding how it was practical for individual commercial pilots to plot their own route for each and every flight - and also explains why the commercial routes I've flown on as a passenger are always very similar, and seldom the most direct path. 

Quote

 

This is why much of the time the flight plans are not actually done with the aeroplane's computer equipment, but on external software and then this is dumped into the nav system either automatically, or copied. Sometimes this actually has to be done in order to get the aeroplane to accept the route since the FMC in the aeroplane won't allow certain routing, but the external software will. We used to have to do this with Thomas Cook A321s on occasion for certain longer distance routes to Africa, since these were right on the ragged edge of the aeroplane's range, but the variants we used had additional fuel tanks installed in the rear hold area and this tended to make the actual aeroplane's weight and balance software on the FMC freak out when inputting the related data using the FMC alone.

Of course once the plane is in the air, the crew are in command and even though they are following a flight plan, if they feel it is necessary, they can override it so long as they have a good reason to do so. It's almost always up to the crew to decide how much fuel they want; they might get advice on it, or recommendations, but it's generally their choice since that's to do with actually operating the aeroplane. Essentially, a commercial airline pilot is a bus/truck driver in the sky; i.e. they have a route to fly and a timetable to adhere to, and it is their job to fly that route and keep to that schedule, but how they go about doing that is where their skills and knowledge come in.

This can vary, however, what you need to be aware of is that there are 'slots' at airports, i.e. if there is a daily KLM flight to Amsterdam from Manchester at 10am, then it will have a departure slot for that time and Euro control will be aware of this, so they and all the controllers along its route will be expecting it, and any other aeroplanes due in that area at the same time, so if those controllers are aware of this, they should be able to manage things properly. Occasionally, like any system, things can go a bit awry though and when this happens the first 'line of defence' to avoid big traffic jams over and near airports, is to negate the possibility of them even occurring in the first place, by delaying the departure slot for an aeroplane before it has even taken off, so in our example, if things were looking like they were getting busy at Amsterdam, that KLM plane on the ground at Manchester at 9.30am and expecting to push out in 30 mins, might get told, you can't depart before 11.30 am, but we'll keep you posted if this changes. Then the crew just has to sit there and wait until their new later slot opens.

Similarly, a crew might expect a hold or some such en-route and they would normally be told to expect one, rather than having it dropped on them at the last second, so they would have time to program radios etc. This is a bit like when you are ready to land, you program in all the stuff for the go around as well, so that if you decide to go missed, you know what to do and will have it on the FMC already.

Controllers are not inclined to drop surprises on crews, but they are there to expedite stuff if they can, so if an aeroplane can be made to skip some waypoints in a STAR, or even the entire procedure and just go straight for lining up the ILS from a vector, then ATC will do that, and they will also tell crews there's 'no speed restriction' sometimes too, although dropping restrictions is more likely to occur outbound than inbound, since normally you'd be trying to slow down rather than speed up.

 

This is exactly the kind of info I was looking for and really helps to understand what goes on in the cockpit in the real world. For me, most of the fun in Flight Simulator comes in the "suspension of disbelief" - where for brief periods, you forget you are in front of a computer and get a glimpse of what it's like to fly an actual aircraft. Understanding these nuances really adds to the immersion.

Thanks again for taking the time to educate me!

[enright 496]

37 minutes ago, in2tech said:

@enright These are really good questions. Just wondering if you are NEW to flight simulation or having been using flight simulation programs for awhile and just now need to know this info. This is a really good topic either way, and I am enjoying the information provided by others.

Have fun and enjoy learning! That also applies to me and I would think others too?

I'm an aviation novice, but a sim veteran and have been around since the Bruce Artwick / Sublogic days. I'm also a frequent flyer - and my questions really came to a head when attempting to replicate the shuttle flight from San Antonio to Dallas that I've taken way, way, way too many times. 

It says a lot about the "out of the box" fidelity of this version of Flight Simulator that it gives you enough insight into actual flight logistics that you start questioning how these things work in the real word. The gaps between reality and the sim are only glaring because it comes so amazingly close to the real thing. 

Super thankful for all of the amazing replies and info! 

[Glenn Fitzpatrick 3,798]

21 minutes ago, enright said:

 

Okay - that definitely clears things up a bit. I was having a hard time understanding how it was practical for individual commercial pilots to plot their own route for each and every flight - and also explains why the commercial routes I've flown on as a passenger are always very similar, and seldom the most direct path. 

 

That is another issue altogether.

Commercial flights are usually not going to just randomly create a new flight plan that flies direct between two points the way the game does.  There are enroute charts with published airways which for historical reasons tend to follow VORs and my impression is most commercial flights will follow these (someone with real life commercial experience may correct me on that) .

These  "airways" are the things you will commonly hear described as "Victor airways", "low altitude" or "high altitude" airways and "jet routes".

I suppose a rather inaccurate analogy of flight planning using published airways might be something like saying "follow the New Jersey Turnpike till you reach exit 14 ".  The game takes no notice ( AFAIK at least)  of these published airways, though presumably Vatsim and Pilotedge do,. though to be honest it is not something I have ever actually looked into in any detail.

https://www.cfinotebook.net/notebook/aircraft-operations/enroute/airways-and-route-course-change

https://www.boldmethod.com/blog/lists/2021/03/ten-types-of-ifr-routes-on-enroute-charts/

Edited March 19, 2021 by Glenn Fitzpatrick

[enright 496]

2 hours ago, asnamara said:

Great set of questions. And this may differ significantly depending on the airport and country. You cannot predict entirely what approach will be assigned to you. But you try plan ahead for likely weather forecast. There are countless other factors that need to be accounted for as well. Your aircraft may not have sufficient performance to carry out the published missed approach, at which stage you may be limited to certain approaches only. You can however agree with ATC on an alternative missed approach. Some places will vector you completely to intercept final approach, others will insist on you following the entire procedure including procedure turns etc. With experience you get to anticipate which approach a particular airport will give you for the given weather/runway in use. But it is by no means an exact science. The runway and approach used may sometimes change at the last minute due to passing storms or an other aircraft blocking a particular runway. Changing approaches on short notice on the FMS is the easy part. Briefing the approach is the more time consuming part, but I reckon it is crucial. Sometimes I will brief 2 approaches prior to descending especially if I suspect there will be a change. Make sure your charts are ready for all possible approaches to the airport and take as much time to configure the aircraft and brief the crew should there be a last minute change. Most importantly, ask for vectors or a hold if necessary until you can properly set yourself up. Nothing worse than a poorly briefed or half prepared approach.

That makes sense, and I suppose you also become intimately familiar with routes and alternates when you fly them regularly week after week. Have you ever had a situation where you were suddenly out of your comfort zone because of rerouting or weather? Like "oh crud, I've never landed on that runway before..." 

The other thing I find hard to grasp is the ground taxi routing - and the fact that any pilot can actually comprehend the instructions. The sim doesn't bark at you when you get your taxiways mixed up - but I know the real world ground controllers are not at all forgiving. Does following the correct path to the gate concern you when you land on an unfamiliar runway?

[enright 496]

4 hours ago, fppilot said:

This would be highly unusual. Not saying never. But your concern is greatly unfounded. Only once in my life have I see the active runway change from one end to the other, -and- then change back within any short time frame. And for 3 1/2 years it was my responsibility to make those calls during my airport weather station shifts.  That would be especially rare at a major airport.  Rare turning a significant airport around multiple times in a day. Turning a major airport around is no small task for ATC, ground ops, and airline ops.  Winds do not change like that several times a day.  And turning any significant airport around multiple times in a day would entail incredible flight delays and air congestion.

I have been in a few direction changes while on the ground as a passenger - and they definitely seem like a logistical nightmare. Just getting everyone in the takeoff queue to taxi over to the other end of the runway took 30 minutes. I was thinking these happen as often as the wind changes direction - but I can see why that is not the case. Probably better to deal with a moderate tail wind for a few hours than to go through all the trouble of temporarily changing the active runway. 

Thanks for the clarification!

[fppilot 4,371]

18 minutes ago, enright said:

Probably better to deal with a moderate tail wind for a few hours than to go through all the trouble of temporarily changing the active runway

No!   Depends on the number of runways in play at a particular airport. At a major airport there will not be an active runway with any significant tailwind vector.  But multiple changes in a short period of time that causes a change in the active runway is rare.  One change yes. Multiple changes?  Rare!

[sd_flyer 6,042]

Enirght, don't get a wrong impression! It's not that stressful IRL even if runway of intended landing change.

Flight planing are base on several criteria:

-  Aircraft performance!  You may ask yourself a question? Can I  hop over those mountains on the hot day? 

- Weather ! Can I beat that thunderstorm? Will I pick up ice! Will the wind favor my path?

- Terrain ! Should I fly over flat areas or mountains? Urban or unpopulated area?

- Delays!  Should fly to San Francisco  with one hour ATC delays or nearby to Oakland with no delays?

- Your own personal state. I'm tired today? Stressed? Sick?

Here are commonly use acronyms mitigation of risk:

PAVE- pilot, airplane, environment, external pressure

IMSAFE -  illness, medication  stress, alcohol, fatigue eating/emoutions

DECIDE - detect, estimate, choose, identify, do, evaluate

Some visual stuff:

https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/training/fits/guidance/media/personal minimums checklist.pdf

[fluffyflops 1,858]

4 hours ago, fppilot said:

Not sure I have ever seen three simple questions answered with more complex responses.  I've been involved in either aviation or flight simulation for now 50 years and am bewildered here,,,,,  I might ask the original post member to provide his level of experience and thus the depth of his questions to help guide this discussion.  I fear that for lack of that some may head for shelter.

That's why qualified dispatchers like my self (FAA license) have spent many years learning our craft, and still 13 years in the job still learning new stuff every day. We are a funny breed of individuals. 

We don't just throw a route from Flightaware into pfpx and think we are masters of flightplanning.   There is so much more to it than that. 

 

[SAS443 1,723]

4 hours ago, sd_flyer said:

Here is brief for flight planning summary:

• MINIMUM VFR/IFR EQUIPMENT
• WEATHER REPORTS AND FORCASTS
• AIRPORT INFORMATION (A/FD)
• FUEL REQUIREMENTS (POH, WEIGHT AND BALANCE)
• ALTERNATIVE AIRFIELDS
• TRAFFIC DELAYS

+NOTAM (AD + ENR) 😇