RNAV Approaches

[Bobsk8 12,539]

1 hour ago, FPStewy said:

Standalone, but frankly I was/am quite disappointed in it for the price, right now LNM with the extra maps is my goto.

What is LNM, never heard of it. 

[TacomaSailor 191]

12 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

What is LNM, never heard of it. 

Little Nav Map ???

FREE??

Edited April 8, 2021 by TacomaSailor

[Bobsk8 12,539]

33 minutes ago, TacomaSailor said:

Little Nav Map ???

FREE??

Yes, I tried it a few years ago. Didn't care for  the Gui, so didn't use it at the time. 

[Noncon 19]

2 hours ago, piperarrow41 said:

Has anyone tried the Navigraph Beta Nav Data for MSFS2020?

Yes, and it works well.  It does update MSFS database with Navigraph waypoint data, but because MSFS wants to populate its own outdated/incorrect approaches in the its flight planner, it often stubbornly refuses to make use of the Navigraph data.  

However there is a workaround, I use LNM (also with Navigraph data), and if I export the flight plan to MSFS planner as VFR, it appears to see the approaches as simple waypoints, then it will include Navigraph data in the flight plan and approach.

 

[amahran 47]

2 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

Just looked in Skyvector and there are no approaches for CYLS there either. https://skyvector.com/airport/CYLS/Lake-Simcoe-Regional-Airport

Don’t think Skyvector shows approaches for Canadian airports. You’re best off using fltplan.com to get Canadian charts.

[piperarrow41 4]

I typically enter a flight plan with either the aircraft's FMS or G1000/G3000 GPS and do not use the MSFS2020 flight planner.  Would I run into the same issues you mentioned above with regard to MSFS2020 injecting its own outdated/incorrect NAV data?  Does the Navigraph Beta fix the RNAV approach issues that have been discussed or just add the missing approaches the simulator left out?

If Microsoft has no intention of addressing the RNAV/NAV data issues it would be a real shame.  I can't log the approaches flown on the sim, but I do use it to practice the approaches I fly in real life and right now its not working.

Thanks again.

[hangar 660]

1 hour ago, Noncon said:

I use LNM (also with Navigraph data), and if I export the flight plan to MSFS planner as VFR, it appears to see the approaches as simple waypoints, then it will include Navigraph data in the flight plan and approach.

Yes, but you'd only have the waypoints and not vertical guidance which means this is still not a valid precision approach. You can perform a non-precision approach using only plates but for it to be considered a "precision" approach you'd need to use the instruments and have that vertical guidance. 

Whether or not having the vertical guidance info in the Navigraph database is good enough by itself for the MSFS GPS's to perform the vertical guidance is something I don't know...but can & should be easily answered by Asobo.  

I thought by now we'd have a better understanding of this day1 release issue from 9 months ago. Why hasn't Asobo explained this to anyone (or have they explained it?).

Edited April 8, 2021 by hangar

[Bobsk8 12,539]

30 minutes ago, hangar said:

Yes, but you'd only have the waypoints and not vertical guidance which means this is still not a valid precision approach. You can perform a non-precision approach using only plates but for it to be considered a "precision" approach you'd need to use the instruments and have that vertical guidance. 

Whether or not having the vertical guidance info in the Navigraph database is good enough by itself for the MSFS GPS's to perform the vertical guidance is something I don't know...but can & should be easily answered by Asobo.  

I thought by now we'd have a better understanding of this day1 release issue from 9 months ago. Why hasn't Asobo explained this to anyone (or have they explained it?).

LPV approaches are a WAAS/GPS based approach, and they're very similar to the ILS. But there is a difference. Even though LPV approaches have vertical guidance, they're not considered precision approaches. Instead, they're an approach with vertical guidance

[JRBarrett 3,038]

5 hours ago, hangar said:

Keep in mind that this might not JUST be a database issue. if that was the case then we'd likely already have a modified database file with some of the the missing Rnav's wouldn't we (but again, im just assuming)? As I posed, in my reply above, each individual airport scenery file may need to be updated with it's Rnav's PLUS be added to the GPS scenery database.

RNAV approaches are not part of airport scenery. They are simply a series of lat/lon coordinates assigned to named waypoints. The scenery is “involved” in the sense that a specific approach will be assigned to a specific runway, but the approach does not depend on anything in the scenery itself, unlike an ILS.

The abundance of missing RNAV approaches is a reflection of the extremely poor quality of the NavBlue database in many parts of the US and Canada. The Navigraph beta MSFS data will provide many of the approaches that are missing in the default database.

[hangar 660]

12 minutes ago, JRBarrett said:

the approach does not depend on anything in the scenery itself, unlike an ILS.

Oh ok, so then apparently we DO know that it's all about an updated GPS database. That's an easy fix, comparatively speaking.

15 minutes ago, JRBarrett said:

The Navigraph beta MSFS data will provide many of the approaches that are missing in the default database.

So then this sounds like it means the MSFS GPS's will be able to read and function 100% with the Navigraph updates, this is great news...

...so why do some seem to think we're so screwed? Is it because we have to wait for Navigraph to develop the update for us and people are impatient, or is it because they have to pay for an update that they feel MS should be paying for?

 

32 minutes ago, Bobsk8 said:

they're not considered precision approaches. Instead, they're an approach with vertical guidance

Funny I knew this yet forgot all about it...but regardless, who wants to fly a waas approach without the vertical guidance?

For heaven's sake It's like eating apple pie with no apples and only the crust! 

[JRBarrett 3,038]

1 hour ago, hangar said:

.so why do some seem to think we're so screwed? Is it because we have to wait for Navigraph to develop the update for us and people are impatient, or is it because they have to pay for an update that they feel MS should be paying for?

Navigraph AIRAC updates for MSFS are always released on the same day a new real-world database cycle comes out. The MSFS updates (from NavBlue) are often late - sometimes by days, sometimes by several weeks.

AKAIK Using Navigraph will restore missing approaches at most airports that should have them, (but don’t) in the default MSFS nav database. 

That is certainly the case at my home airport in New York, which has had two operational ILS approaches since the early 1960’s, and 4 WAAS LPV RNAV approaches since 2008, (and non-WAAS GPS RNAV for 10 years before that.) And yet, every single approach is missing in the MSFS default nav database and default planner, and has been missing since the sim was released last August. I have submitted 8 Zendesk reports since then with no change, despite multiple in-sim AIRAC updates since initial release of MSFS. 

All the missing approaches, both in the in-game aircraft avionics and the MSFS default flight planner, are fully present and accounted for when the Navigraph beta is installed. I would never consider using anything else.

Edited April 8, 2021 by JRBarrett

[hangar 660]

37 minutes ago, JRBarrett said:

at my home airport in New York

Well I'm from the Long Island area and usually enjoy being able to practice some of the Rnav's into airports like Montalk and Block Island, not to mention a few of the upstate ones, but alas, are now missing their associated approaches that have been available for years now. It'll be very nice having those approaches back...but when is the Navigraph supposed to be available, is there an actual date yet? How much is the cost?

[ryanbatc 12,800]

34 minutes ago, hangar said:

Well I'm from the Long Island area and usually enjoy being able to practice some of the Rnav's into airports like Montalk and Block Island, not to mention a few of the upstate ones, but alas, are now missing their associated approaches that have been available for years now. It'll be very nice having those approaches back...but when is the Navigraph supposed to be available, is there an actual date yet? How much is the cost?

Navigraph is available now.  I think the data costs like 25 EUR a year.  I think it's also available monthly.

[hangar 660]

1 hour ago, ryanbatcund said:

Navigraph is available now.  I think the data costs like 25 EUR a year.  I think it's also available monthly.

Ok, so if I purchase Navigraph and lets say it has an approach that was missing from the MS database... will this missing approach now show up in all of the MSFS GPS's?

*EDIT - woops!...I think @JRBarrett already mentioned they'll show up in the sim now, sorry...been a long'ish day, heh.

Edited April 9, 2021 by hangar

[ryanbatc 12,800]

12 minutes ago, hangar said:

Ok, so if I purchase Navigraph and lets say it has an approach that was missing from the MS database... will this missing approach now show up in all of the MSFS GPS's?

I'm using the freeware GNS mod but yes.  You'll still get the fugly massive arc to track to the first IAF but yeah they show up.  And still no support for hold in lieu of procedure turns (the central fix typically)

KFCM rnav (gps) ry 36 not available in default data

prags by Ryan Butterworth, on Flickr