Cockpit layout in new generation aircraft.

[Staffan 12]

>What voices? There was no true opposition to Airbus joysticks>among experts in the field. Human factor people always>considered Airbus' joystick consistent with their fly-by-wire>hard-limit envelope philospohy.I was not talking about the elite experts, but the people in general. I remember it very well, all opinion in the media. I suppose you havn

[Guest oyvindhansen]

I'd go with the elite experts on this one. What do people in general care whether the aircraft has a stick or a yoke. Most people probably wouldn't know anyway. The 320 incident had an element of pilot error, and a yoke couldn't have saved the day.-

[Staffan 12]

>The 320 incident had an element of pilot error, and a yoke couldn't have saved the day.That is true, but on the other hand, a non FBW plane would probably have saved the day. :-)http://www.scandicair.com/images/sa_banner.gifMy specs are:Dell Dimension 4600 P4/2.8 at 3.0 Ghz1024 Mb DDR333 Dual channel memory (2x256,1x512)256 Mb ATI Radeon X850 Pro ViVoCatalyst 5.9ATITool V0.24DirectX 9.0cW XP Home with SP1E171FPb Flat panel monitor 17"240Gb (2x120) 7200rpm HDLacie 250Gb Extern HD

[Murmur 3,941]

>>The 320 incident had an element of pilot error, and a yoke>couldn't have saved the day.>>>That is true, but on the other hand, a non FBW plane would>probably have saved the day. :-)Probable. And probably in some other air-accident, a FBW plane would have saved the day. :)Marco

[KevinAu 441]

>Hi,>>One thing that struck me, is why manufacturers of new aircraft>makes cockpits with old levers?>>What I am thinking about is mainly why they don

[Guest Fearless Tower]

It seems odd that this discussion of buttons and switches has turned into a thread about Airbus bashing. I myself am no fan of Airbus, but you really can't blame them for the sidestick concept. Our F-16's had it for years before Airbus thought to consider it. A sidestick versus a yoke or center stick has nothing to do with safety. It has everything to do with ergonomics and that will always have to contend with personal preferences. Kind of like those dang ergonimic split keyboards. Some people who type alot think they're the greatest thing ever invented while other traditionalists hate them with a passion. Again, it's just a matter a preference, but safety has nothing to do with it. I will say this about the Airbus sidestick.....when you do most of your flying by adjusting switched and dials on an autopilot and FMC, it's kind of nice to have the legroom.On a lighter note, here's one I heard from a DE recently:"ya know what the difference between an Airbus and a chainsaw???.....about 2000 trees a minute...."

[Staffan 12]

>It seems odd that this discussion of buttons and switches has>turned into a thread about Airbus bashing. I myself am no fan>of Airbus, but you really can't blame them for the sidestick>concept. Our F-16's had it for years before Airbus thought to>consider it. A sidestick versus a yoke or center stick has>nothing to do with safety. It has everything to do with>ergonomics and that will always have to contend with personal>preferences. Kind of like those dang ergonimic split>keyboards. Some people who type alot think they're the>greatest thing ever invented while other traditionalists hate>them with a passion. Again, it's just a matter a preference,>but safety has nothing to do with it. >>I will say this about the Airbus sidestick.....when you do>most of your flying by adjusting switched and dials on an>autopilot and FMC, it's kind of nice to have the legroom.>>>On a lighter note, here's one I heard from a DE recently:>"ya know what the difference between an Airbus and a>chainsaw???.....about 2000 trees a minute...."Hi,It was certainly not my meaning to turn this into a Airbus bashing thread. ;-)My point was simply that if the pilots can get used to a sidestick, they probably could get used to buttons instead of levers. Even from a safety point of view. ;-)http://www.scandicair.com/images/sa_banner.gifMy specs are:Dell Dimension 4600 P4/2.8 at 3.0 Ghz1024 Mb DDR333 Dual channel memory (2x256,1x512)256 Mb ATI Radeon X850 Pro ViVoCatalyst 5.9ATITool V0.24DirectX 9.0cW XP Home with SP1E171FPb Flat panel monitor 17"240Gb (2x120) 7200rpm HDLacie 250Gb Extern HD

[Guest oyvindhansen]

There is a difference. A sidestick is not less user friendly than a yoke. It is, arguably, more user friendly and intuitive. The design and workings of the yoke was originally dictated not by the pilot's wishes and ergonomical considerations, but by the demands of the mechanical systems used in early aircraft. Somehow we have been stuck with the design ever since, even though the large movements doesn't serve a purpose anymore. There is no maneuver that you can do with a yoke that you cannot do twice as good with a sidestick. Buttons doesn't improve on levers. The levers are already of a size that doesn't take up much cockpit real estate, especially as they are out of the way of the pilots legs. The step from yoke to stick, on the other hand, is to replace a hideously large contraption with a device that fits neatly into the hand, and has the ideal placement, right in front of the pilot's armrest, so that steeering doesn't involve moving the entire upper body. -

[Guest DreamFleet]

How would you use buttons instead of levers for the throttle, Staffan, especially when you might have to adjust thrust manually, such as in a failure / emergency situation?With the yoke/joystick, the pilot still has something in his hand that moves, and while joysticks may be "new" to airliners, they have been around for years in other types of aircraft.With throttle levers and gear lever, you are truly dealing with a physical device, which when looked at one can determine its state of operation. One can also operate it with their eyes closed, or while not looking directly at it.Those "old" levers are nothing to laugh at, unless you have not spent much time dealing with real cockpits, and having to fly planes under difficult conditions.I can have my eyes glued to the gauges, hand flying a difficult ILS approach, yet can still reach over and grab the throttles or lower the gear. Try that with buttons, especially if you push the wrong button.The same applies to the flap lever and spoiler lever.When all goes to "pot" in the cockpit, I'd rather have solid thrust levers in my hand, and a gear handle, rather than buttons and annunciator lights to decipher. ;-)If you think about it, the three most important things in the cockpit are your flight controls, power controls and landing gear, and they remain mechanical-style devices, and for very good reasons.Remember, even an Airbus can be entirely hand flown / manually controlled, in which case those throttles are not much different than what is on a Boeing or a Piper. ;-)Sometimes the best solution to operating something is the one that is already implemented, as opposed to trying something new just for the sake of making it operate like an autopilot, FMC, or radio, or to make it look more "modern". Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpg

[michal 44]

>Somehow we have been stuck with the>design ever since, even though the large movements doesn't>serve a purpose anymore.They do serve a purpose.There was a long thread on this subject. You ought to read some professional literature on the subject before making statements that are factually false. You can only have so called "soft" flight envelope protection (that's the flight controls' design philosophy that Boeing prefers in their fly-by-wire (ala 777)) with movements larger than what joystick offers you. To put it simply you could not put a joystick in a 777 without completely changing the flight control software and effectively making if Airbus-like.Michael J.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/pmdg_744F.jpghttp://sales.hifisim.com/pub-download/asv6-banner-beta.jpg

[Guest ARanc]

Well said Lou! I totally agree with you.RegardsAlexwww.fs2crew.comhttp://www.fs2crew.com/betateam.jpg

[michal 44]

Yes, Lou indeed said it extremely well, moreover don't we all real life pilots love to handle those nice forgings? :)Michael J.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/pmdg_744F.jpghttp://sales.hifisim.com/pub-download/asv6-banner-beta.jpg

[jagabom 21]

The Boeing vs Airbus thing is just like DVORAK keyboard is better then QWERTY.JimCYWG

[Staffan 12]

>How would you use buttons instead of levers for the throttle,>Staffan, especially when you might have to adjust thrust>manually, such as in a failure / emergency situation?Hi Lou,I did not mean the throttles, but more the spoilers, flaps and gear. :-wavehttp://www.scandicair.com/images/sa_banner.gifMy specs are:Dell Dimension 4600 P4/2.8 at 3.0 Ghz1024 Mb DDR333 Dual channel memory (2x256,1x512)256 Mb ATI Radeon X850 Pro ViVoCatalyst 5.9ATITool V0.24DirectX 9.0cW XP Home with SP1E171FPb Flat panel monitor 17"240Gb (2x120) 7200rpm HDLacie 250Gb Extern HD

[Guest DreamFleet]

Let me add: I could not care less about the Boeing / Airbus debate, and do not engage in it. It is a silly debate, no offense intended towards anyone. Every time I read such debates at FS forums, well, I won't go there with what I think.That being said:Staffan...Get some serious time in real aircraft, and you will understand why spoiler, flap and gear is also important. You might also understand why those two things at your feet are also critical.It comes down to the "basics", and these items are things that need to be "reach and feel" in nature, almost out of instinct. They do not need to be buttons that you need to look at, push, notice what some annunciator says, etc. Aviation will not be "Mr. Sulu" at the helm for quite some time to come.As I said above: Sometimes the best solution is the one already implemented, and to truly understand this you really need to be in a real cockpit, of whatever kind, at whatever speed it may be, and knowing that your actions hold your life and perhaps the lives of others in the balance.I believe that both Airbus and Boeing (in alphabetical order) got it right, (that means there is no ONE correct solution) and I still want a lever to grab at, and a lever at which I can glance at and see its position. It appears that both Airbus and Boeing agree, at least when it comes to everything but the yoke/joystick, which is no real issue, and just a difference in philosophy.As to that Airbus crash in the forest, way back when. That was when the aircraft was essentially "experimental" in nature, and when it comes to complex aircraft such as Airbus / Boeing, they have both had their issues.You tend to learn about that after 30 years in real cockpits.BTW, I've been flying yokes for 30 years in Pipers, yet recently flew a joystick in a Columbia 400, and got used to it almost immediately.I liked it very much. It's a non-issue, and no one should say that a yoke is better than a joystick in any aircraft.Flying on your PC, even for those who have it connected to a $30,000 home hardware cockpit, one with all the "bells and whistles", one that even looks like the real thing, is very nice, but it is not, and never will be the real thing.You have to really be there to understand, and "there" means the real thing, whether it is a Cessna 172, or an Airbus A340-600.Or, to put it bluntly:You are flying a LOC approach in IMC and in heavy rain, and on board are members of your family. Been there, done that.There is nothing "old" about those levers. They are there for a good reason. They are just as contemporary today as they were 50 years ago.Yes, the push-button automation in real or FS aircraft is nice, but in the real world we do not have a "pause" button either.This is all coming from someone who prefers throttle levers to vernier controls in GA aircraft, even though I know that both have their advantages. ;-)Then again, after flying that Columbia 400 with a joystick AND vernier controls, I could also change my thinking about that, but, "buttons" do not come into my mind! :-lolRegards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpg