SPITFIRE out NOW!!

[Dominique_K 10,147]

3 hours ago, Cats Eyes Cunningham said:

@Will Fly For Cheese  Same! I'm ok once she's in the air, but she is a beast to get off the ground. I find if I boost to the suggest +8 [even gradually] she will roll or be uncontrollable along the runway.

All tips very welcome!

Have a look here SUPERMARINE SPITFIRE. Take off and Landing Guide. | Key Aero

 I am not a pilot nor an expert but I've flown the A2A and RealAIr  birds for so long... . This is how I understand how it works. Any correction by real pilots will, of course, be most welcome.

First thing, practice with no wind and be sure that your controllers are well calibrated. A set of pedals helps quite a bit. A silly thing, be comfortable with the set of cockpit views to the outside. 

You have to solve two distinct problems at the same time (three if you have a crosswind).

Rudder is to counter the yaw all along the run, induced by the prop wash and P-factor. A strong rudder bias helps but you gotta use the pedals too. Rudder helps for the yaw only, to keep the aircraft rolling on a straight line.

Torque comes up when the speed is alive. It tries to roll the aircraft on itself. If you push the throttle too fast when the aircraft is still moving slowly there is not enough air pressure on the aileron to counter the torque. The wing drops. So you have to build up the speed slowly (but resolutely) so the torque and the aileron efficiency grow together.

Don't try to takeoff too soon and do not climb if the speed is below 120 mph.

Easier said than done, I know. The best tip of them all is practice, practice, practice and try to understand what went wrong in the yaw/roll play when you find yourself in the daisies (hopefully above ground). 

 Flying a warbird is immensely frustrating at first. And immensely rewarding when you do it right. The tendency of all newbies is to rant and say that the flight model is no good 😉.  Be there, done that. Don't. Practice.

And, oh yeah, I have found that it is not like riding a bicycle, it doesn't come back easily when you have not flown for a long time... 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Dominique_K

[Will Fly For Cheese 1,710]

2 hours ago, Dominique_K said:

Have a look here SUPERMARINE SPITFIRE. Take off and Landing Guide. | Key Aero

 I am not a pilot nor an expert but I've flown the A2A and RealAIr  birds for so long... . This is how I understand how it works. Any correction by real pilots will, of course, be most welcome.

First thing, practice with no wind and be sure that your controllers are well calibrated. A set of pedals helps quite a bit. A silly thing, be comfortable with the set of cockpit views to the outside. 

You have to solve two distinct problems at the same time (three if you have a crosswind).

Rudder is to counter the yaw all along the run, induced by the prop wash and P-factor. A strong rudder bias helps but you gotta use the pedals too. Rudder helps for the yaw only, to keep the aircraft rolling on a straight line.

Torque comes up when the speed is alive. It tries to roll the aircraft on itself. If you push the throttle too fast when the aircraft is still moving slowly there is not enough air pressure on the aileron to counter the torque. The wing drops. So you have to build up the speed slowly (but resolutely) so the torque and the aileron efficiency grow together.

Don't try to takeoff too soon and do not climb if the speed is below 120 mph.

Easier said than done, I know. The best tip of them all is practice, practice, practice and try to understand what went wrong in the yaw/roll play when you find yourself in the daisies (hopefully above ground). 

 Flying a warbird is immensely frustrating at first. And immensely rewarding when you do it right. The tendency of all newbies is to rant and say that the flight model is no good 😉.  Be there, done that. Don't. Practice.

And, oh yeah, I have found that it is not like riding a bicycle, it doesn't come back easily when you have not flown for a long time... 

 

 

Absolutely this Dominique - I have bolded the bit I'm talking about; First Rule of introducing a Spitfire to the air is; If you try and horse it in to the air by whacking mercilessly forwards on the reigns (back on the stick)  - she'll throw you - like any self-respecting equine who couldn't be arsed with having a poor rider in the saddle.

In many ways - she's a conventional aircraft at low speed - that's why she was easy to train pilots with. The problems come if you introduce the full power of the Merlin too early - then you have to Rudder the Yaw, aileron in to wind, etc - and before you know it you're batting down the grass and it's running out in front of you and anyway you're off the runway and in to the club house, and having to buy a round of drinks for everybody and casually inquiring where the fire extinguishers are located whilst trying to look nonchalant and relaxed. It's not a good look.

For new pilots to the Spit - as a ready reckoner - fly her like a Cessna up to 180 KIAS -

You shouldn't need any more than 7 MP at or around 2600-2800 RPM for Takeoff - and for goodness sake don't shove it at the firewall - Introduce it slowly from Idle to Takeoff Power Setting, keep the spade back until 30-40 KIAS and then SLOWLY bring it to neutral - all the time keep your attention on Rudder, if you have a hint of cross-wind then deflect it in the ailerons - as your speed builds, let the tail rise, that's your cue to pull back on the stick (NOT HORSE) and let HER fly herself up in to the dizzying heights of at least 160 KIAS - then, and only then, may you Climb - a 500-800 FPM Climb. Lose your Gear. Bring your Prop back for approx 2600 and stay in the Climb. Everything docile, yes?

Let her get up to 8000' and then you can let go; Then go 200 KIAS up to FL180 - then, let her start doing the talking and you? well, you just hang on!

Did I say Landing is a reverse of Taking Off? - no, I didn't.

Now you've got yourself a whole new set of problems, requirements and conditions.

Nobody asked you to fly her - it was your choice. Now get her down.

HINT; Bleed power by doing a Overhead Break Turn over the Airfield.

More information here;

https://www.cfinotebook.net/notebook/aircraft-operations/approaches/overhead-approach-maneuver

Get someone to hold your beer.

Good Luck - she has to be flown.

My philosophy is; If you can take her off - you can land her. Just SLOWLY. Just not too slow. Anything below 80 KIAS and the Spit will spit you out.

I'm enamoured of this one - best so far.

Watch for the Stall - it comes a little earlier than it should - but that's normal. If you're landing on grass you'll be okay just bleeding speed and alighting at the end of a very short float - if you're on tarmac then just watch it - let the speed go before the height does or you'll take a wobble - 5' should do it. 

If you float too much in the a 3-point aspect and you can see the end of the Runway then go by the book for everything, from an Ultra-lite to an A380 and for heaven's sake; GO AROUND. 

There's always another Approach but never another Crash Reproduction that you'd like to participate in.

She's a handful to land - it's not what she was designed to do - her landing was almost an afterthought. Basically, a Three Pointer (where both Main Gears and Tail Wheel touch down together) is crashing an aircraft on to the ground at a speed where it won't damage the airframe. That's how the Spitfire should be landed. You crash it to the ground. Welcome to the wonderful world of Tail Wheel Aircraft. The skill is in the float-end and alighting gently. I have done this RW in a Tiger Moth - and it was so gentle I didn't realise I'd landed for at least 100 yards.

She was designed to fly. And man, does she.

 

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Will Fly For Cheese

[Cats Eyes Cunningham 9]

Wonderful moment tonight when I switched to external camera and there was another Spitfire on my tail. Followed me up the coast to Biggin Hill. Tally ho old boy, you made my night!

Pic:

https://ibb.co/1dKHTs7

[ailchim 206]

The Spitfire Mark I started with 1,000 hp but the Merlin in the Mark IX generated 1,700 hp. The amount of power available meant that advancing the throttle too rapidly on take-off could indeed make the aircraft veer uncontrollably.  The trick was not only to avoid applying too much boost but also to advance the throttle slowly to that point.  Combined with its narrow undercarriage and very long nose, giving poor forward visibility on the ground, this meant that an unusually high number of Spitfires were lost or damaged on the ground or on landing.

So actually, what you are seeing is true to life.

In marks of Spitfire after the Mark IX, the Merlin was replaced with the Griffon engine which eventually stepped up to 2,035 hp, twice the power in the Mark 1.  Apparently excessive throttle movement of the throttle on the ground in later Mark XII's and XIV's could flip the aircraft right over on its back.

 

[Chock 17,769]

1 hour ago, ailchim said:

The Spitfire Mark I started with 1,000 hp but the Merlin in the Mark IX generated 1,700 hp. The amount of power available meant that advancing the throttle too rapidly on take-off could indeed make the aircraft veer uncontrollably.  The trick was not only to avoid applying too much boost but also to advance the throttle slowly to that point.  Combined with its narrow undercarriage and very long nose, giving poor forward visibility on the ground, this meant that an unusually high number of Spitfires were lost or damaged on the ground or on landing.

So actually, what you are seeing is true to life.

In marks of Spitfire after the Mark IX, the Merlin was replaced with the Griffon engine which eventually stepped up to 2,035 hp, twice the power in the Mark 1.  Apparently excessive throttle movement of the throttle on the ground in later Mark XII's and XIV's could flip the aircraft right over on its back.

 

What we also have to consider when talking about developmental progress of the Spitfire, is that whilst the Mark1 in 1938 did indeed have 1030 hp Merlin, it's also true that it weighed just 5,800 lbs and had fabric covered control surfaces. As the Spitfire developed, the addition of more powerful engines did not take place in a vacuum without considerations toward improving its control.

Eleven years after that Mark 1, and disregarding the Spiteful and Seafang derivatives, the last true Spitfire development to come off the production lines - the Seafire 47 - had a 2,375 hp engine which made it approximately 100 mph faster than the Mark 1.

But we have to consider that at 12,750 lb, the Seafire 47 was well over twice the weight of the Mark 1, so it was in no way the light and sprightly Battle of France variant. It was longer, it had spring-loaded elevator tabs, a large inertia weight in the elevator control system, aerodynamic beading on the trailing edges of the elevators, a much better propeller design and so on, all of which aided in its stability on take off, not to mention a good deal of other progressive changes to the airframe over the course of a decade which made it easier to fly.

Thus we're not talking about a 5,800 lb aeroplane simply having a more powerful engine bolted onto the front of it with little consideration as to what that would do in terms of controllability. Spitfire development was a very well thought-out process throughout the war and it's really only the Mark IX which was a bit of a rushed interim variant, it basically being a Mark V with a more powerful Merlin as a speedy solution to the deployment of the Focke-Wulf 190A by the Luftwaffe, which was superior to the Mark V.

With regard to the development potential of the Spitfire, it's often pointed out that RJ Mitchell came up with a wonderful design in the Spitfire. That is true - in fact when Vickers purchased Supermarine it was on the proviso that Mitchell would be compelled to stay with Supermarine for a specified number of years, because it was his success in the Schneider Cup designs which Vickers were really interested in - but as true as that is, it's not as simple as the legend would have many believe, and it would be criminal to overlook the contributions of Joe Smith for the brilliance of the Spitfire.

After Mitchell died in 1937, Smith was at the helm of Spitfire prototype development for its entire production run commencing prior to WW2 and for the duration of the significant evolution which kept it competitive throughout WW2 and beyond. It was Smith's brilliance which took what was basically a hand-built Woolston prototype, and redesigned its airframe structure to not only turn it into something which was able to be produced at a significant rate at a shadow factory, but also to be a type which could evolve and keep pace with everything the Germans, Italians and Japanese could throw at it.

Edited April 4, 2021 by Chock

[Dominique_K 10,147]

9 hours ago, Will Fly For Cheese said:

HINT; Bleed power by doing a Overhead Break Turn over the Airfield.

 

This is what I do but alternatively, you can make tight high G turns during the approach to enter the field space at 160 mph

[leprechaunlive 1,852]

12 hours ago, Dillon said:

Asobo needs to do more work on tail dragger modeling in the sim.  We have three birds now that are tail draggers that are a beast on the ground to control on the takeoff and landing role.  No longer can we blame the add-on developers (outside of releasing these birds knowing the SDK for this type of ground handling isn't fully fleshed out)..

I understand what you are saying, BUT, there are a lot of ways to tame the Pfactor and torque effects for devellopers. If they left it like that, they meant to, its very easy to have a plane taking off straight without any pull to the left...but isnt it a bit boring also? taildraggers, specially warbirds, should be a challenge, but same thing i said on the Corsair, we have to cater to a wide range of simmers and hardware (gamepad, twist rudders, pedal rudders, etc). The ideal would be to be able to turn down the difficulty, but basically, no one really knows what the sim does with the difficulty sliders, so its very hard to predict how the plane is going to behave.

[Nyxx 6,993]

12 hours ago, Dominique_K said:

Flying a warbird is immensely frustrating at first. And immensely rewarding when you do it right. The tendency of all newbies is to rant and say that the flight model is no good 😉

Or blame the limites of the sim 😂 But the above is Perfect sum up.

Warbirds, a far cry from a 172.....Keep well away if you think 70 year old WW2 aircraft should be easy to land and take off. The MK1 spit was an animal to even keep cool, let alone take off and land.

I love the FG-1D, it’s the best aircraft in the sim for me, it’s also the only aircraft I’ve crashed in countless years in the sim. It’s hard to lean and wonderful to learn and in that it’s rewarding, landing a PA28 is about as rewarding as any other GA......NOT.

Land the FG and keep it perfectly straight and the reward is a huge smile on you face. No GA does that only in huge cross winds is there any skill.

Edited April 4, 2021 by Nyxx

[Will Fly For Cheese 1,710]

Yes, I remember countless times sitting on the tarmac at the holding point in the A2A MK II nervously glancing at the oil and rad temps wondering if I should risk a runup or just get the thing in the air fast.

[Nyxx 6,993]

I love read people going through the pain of takeoff and landing a good warbird. 

The people that keep working on it till they get it right, I say respect to you and enjoy the reward. Now GA's will feel like toys.

Then they are the ones that hit the forums and complain, its XXXXX and it should not be XXXXXX......🤣 Keep working at it and then see if its all wrong or it was your lack off skill. Think of a warbird as the hardest setting in a sim. GA = Novice setting.

So enjoy the challenge, enbrace it or bale and complain. 

If you need help ask, but dont blame everything apart from yourself. 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Nyxx

[Will Fly For Cheese 1,710]

Absolutely.

It's a beautiful day out there - not a cloud to be seen. 

If anyone's up for it I'll be at Lee-On-Solent EGHF at 1300z (BST-1) for some Spitfire antics over the Solent and maybe a form up and flight along the coast to Shoreham. Northern Europe Server. With this thread open for Comms.

I'll be the one flying badly!

Edited April 4, 2021 by Will Fly For Cheese

[Chock 17,769]

2 hours ago, Nyxx said:

Or blame the limites of the sim 😂 But the above is Perfect sum up.

Warbirds, a far cry from a 172.....Keep well away if you think 70 year old WW2 aircraft should be easy to land and take off. The MK1 spit was an animal to even keep cool, let alone take off and land.

I love the FG-1D, it’s the best aircraft in the sim for me, it’s also the only aircraft I’ve crashed in countless years in the sim. It’s hard to lean and wonderful to learn and in that it’s rewarding, landing a PA28 is about as rewarding as any other GA......NOT.

Land the FG and keep it perfectly straight and the reward is a huge smile on you face. No GA does that only in huge cross winds is there any skill.

It's worth bearing in mind that most new pilots who were doing training at the point in WW2 where it would mean they fly a Mark IX Spitfire in combat - although hardly veteran pilots - were still nevertheless possessed of a fair bit of experience, including some prior piloting experience with earlier Spitfire variants.

They would typically have done initial training in something such as the DH Tiger Moth and/or the Boeing Stearman, up to approximately the kind of hours that it takes for a PPL (30-40 ish), but then they would have flown either a Miles Master or a T6 Harvard quite extensively to determine their aptitude for fighters, if deemed suitable for fighters, when they got sent to an OTU to train for either the Spitfire or the Hurricane (whether you went on the Spit or the Hurri was simply dependent on your surname, first half of the alphabet, you went on Spits, second half you went on Hurricanes), you would then typically do a further four hours with a Spitfire instructor on the Miles Magister, the instructors were typically pilots who had flown in the Battle of France and/or Battle of Britain, so they knew what they were doing but certainly didn't treat trainees with kid gloves since they knew what they were in for.

Students were fined Five Shillings for any infraction, such as taxying with flaps down, overheating an engine and so on. If after fours or so hours with an instructor in a Master you were deemed okay, they'd send you for an additional hour solo in a Master and then if that went okay, they'd let you loose on a Spitfire.

Most OTU Spitfires at that time were Mark 1s, and a lot of them were the original Supermarine ones with pump-handle gear rather than powered landing gear. They were usually fairly battered, but serviceable. You would solo on one of these, then do some additional training including gunnery and such. So by the time you got in a Mark IX, you'd know the Spitfire fairly well since from the OTU you went to a 'pool' to await the requirement for a replacement pilot at an operational squadron, so you'd probably have at least 30 hours on Spitfires plus quite a lot of hours on other taildraggers by the time you got to a squadron with Mark IXs.

Edited April 4, 2021 by Chock

[Will Fly For Cheese 1,710]

Thanks for that Chock - a lot of people have watched a lot of old b & w war films with two young pilots are asked by the Wing Co; "How many hours?" and answering "4 Sir." and assuming the rookies have little or no real flying hours.

In addition to the spitfire being a handful, Alex Henshaw - Production Test Pilot at Castle Bromwich personally flew 2,360 spits (1 in 10 of total number produced) to test them straight off the production line and later said that no two were alike.

Edited April 4, 2021 by Will Fly For Cheese

[Nyxx 6,993]

22 minutes ago, Chock said:

It's worth bearing in mind that most new pilots who were doing training at the point in WW2 where it would mean they fly a Mark IX Spitfire in combat - although hardly veteran pilots - were still nevertheless possessed of a fair bit of experience, including some prior piloting experience with earlier Spitfire variants.

They would typically have done initial training in something such as the DH Tiger Moth and/or the Boeing Stearman, up to approximately the kind of hours that it takes for a PPL (30-40 ish), but then they would have flown either a Miles Master or a T6 Harvard quite extensively to determine their aptitude for fighters, if deemed suitable for fighters, when they got sent to an OTU to train for either the Spitfire or the Hurricane (whether you went on the Spit or the Hurri was simply dependent on your surname, first half of the alphabet, you went on Spits, second half you went on Hurricanes), you would then typically do a further four hours with a Spitfire instructor on the Miles Magister, the instructors were typically pilots who had flown in the Battle of France and/or Battle of Britain, so they knew what they were doing but certainly didn't treat trainees with kid gloves since they knew what they were in for.

Students were fined Five Shillings for any infraction, such as taxying with flaps down, overheating an engine and so on. If after fours or so hours with an instructor in a Master you were deemed okay, they'd send you for an additional hour solo in a Master and then if that went okay, they'd let you loose on a Spitfire.

Most OTU Spitfires at that time were Mark 1s, and a lot of them were the original Supermarine ones with pump-handle gear rather than powered landing gear. They were usually fairly battered, but serviceable. You would solo on one of these, then do some additional training including gunnery and such. So by the time you got in a Mark IX, you'd know the Spitfire fairly well since from the OTU you went to a 'pool' to await the requirement for a replacement pilot at an operational squadron, so you'd probably have at least 30 hours on Spitfires plus quite a lot of hours on other taildraggers by the time you got to a squadron with Mark IXs.

Can you just amagine your first takeoff and landing in a MK1, Terrifying.....

[Will Fly For Cheese 1,710]

20 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

Can you just amagine your first takeoff and landing in a MK1, Terrifying.....

. . . and the first thing you have to do airborne is swap your hands over, put the brakes on, lift the gear handle up and pump the gear up!

Wonderful interview with Cliff Spink here; (The only man alive who has flown each and every type)

https://vintageaviationecho.com/cliff-spink-spitfire/

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Will Fly For Cheese