Thankful I'm in the winter of my life...

[n4gix 4,947]

On 4/9/2021 at 2:48 PM, charliearon said:

Then why in the heck did I get a potato chip? 🤪

Lucky you Charlie!

All I got was a buffalo chip... 

[hs118 707]

"If you have the power to turn another planet into Earth, then you have the power to turn Earth back into Earth." Neil deGrasse Tyson

[goates 576]

3 hours ago, overspeed3 said:

Going to Mars:

OK - who volunteers to spend the next 6 months or so aboard a cylinder with with perhaps less room than a studio apartment, and maybe three or four other shipmates?  After that, about a year or more on the return trip?  Oh, and likely no gravity, plus a good dose of solar radiation.  Besides all that,  critical maneuvering to to orbit, and then land safely on Mars, and later, a shuttle ride to back  to hopefully meet-up with the mother ship.  All with the specter  of Murphy's Law in play...   

Anybody?

As martin said, just because you can't see why someone would do this doesn't mean there are others who wouldn't. Many people throughout history have put themselves into similar situations, and I don't think this will be any different. Look at the many polar expeditions in the 19th and early 20th centuries. The conditions they endured weren't much better than what a Mars expedition would have to deal with when you account for the technology level. More than a few died, and yet others still followed after them. Then there are the test pilots and first astronauts who strapped into machines and flew into environments we didn't fully understand at the time.

I think there are more than a few people who would gladly sign up for a mission to Mars, probably including a number of the current astronauts and cosmonauts.

[birdguy 3,943]

On the geologic time scale we have come a long way toward making this planet uninhabitable in  mere minutes.

We talk about a 

'Plan B' to move off into space into orbiting cities under domes.  For how many people?  A mere fraction of the 8 billion we will have in a couple of years.

Are the 'lucky' few who get to live in those sterile orbiting cities going to leave the vast, vast majority to a distopian existence?

I see no hope unless all this enthusiasm to get colonies in space where they will be little more than zoo creatures, the remnants of what was left behind, is focused more on this planet's recovery.

Reforestation.  Cleaning up the oceans.  Clean energy like solar and wind which is really free energy once the solar panels and windmills are amortized.  More equitable income and wealth distribution.  More spending on infrastructure.  Stabilize global warming.  Eliminating 'forever' wars.  In short more energy and wealth on cleaning up the house we are living in rather than trying to find a new house.  

But I doubt the love of wealth and hoarding it will let that happen which I why I am thankful I am in the winter of my life.  

Noel

[birdguy 3,943]

2 hours ago, goates said:

I think there are more than a few people who would gladly sign up for a mission to Mars, probably including a number of the current astronauts and cosmonauts.

You are talking here of a scientific effort.  Not the 'Plan B' for moving people off the planet we are destroying as Martin suggested.

[goates 576]

4 hours ago, birdguy said:

You are talking here of a scientific effort.  Not the 'Plan B' for moving people off the planet we are destroying as Martin suggested.

It would start as a scientific effort that would lead to long term living and colonization. Human history has been one long story of people expanding outward, and I don't see this as much different.

Yes, we should be working to improve life here, but that won't help if a planet killing asteroid, comet or other extinction level event hit us. So why not do both? We have the resources, especially if we stop shooting each other.

[Reader 2,021]

13 hours ago, martin-w said:

I wouldn't have fancied being an early colonizer of America, that dreadfully long voyage across the ocean, the scurvy, death, shipwreck and when you get there probably succumbing to a dreadful disease or being killed and tortured by the natives. But guess what... a multitude did. 

Humankind must push the envelope, if we don't we will surely stagnate and become extinct. But if we don't, if we survive, we will continue to learn and advance and one day live in perfect harmony with the natural world. 

The other view is that the "colonists" in fact killed the inhabitants of the newly found continents, who were living in "perfect harmony with the natural world", either by "dreadful disease" or torture, or indeed just simple murder, to make way for their own need for space and the imposition of their lifestyle. They went on to decimate the animal population to feed the ever growing number of their mouths and later to do the same to the ocean life. All the while, inventing grand new methods of travel and manufacture, using irreplaceable fossil fuels in a totally unsustainable way and filling the rivers and oceans with toxic waste of all descriptions. We continue to do this, despite the glaringly obvious destruction that we have wreaked. Now, it seems, having ruined our own environment and wiped out our predecessors, it is seen as a good idea to start spreading this self-destructive behaviour to other planets. If that is pushing the envelope, then we deserve extinction.

[martin-w 3,235]

13 hours ago, yurei said:

"If you have the power to turn another planet into Earth, then you have the power to turn Earth back into Earth." Neil deGrasse Tyson

 

Not relevant to what we were talking about though. In that instance Tyson was referring to terraforming. Not forming a colony on Mars. 

 

[hs118 707]

13 hours ago, birdguy said:

On the geologic time scale we have come a long way toward making this planet uninhabitable in  mere minutes.

Noel

Noel, you are spot on and hint at the underlying hubris of certain Western thought habits. I suppose it stems from the Abrahamic traditions, this notion that humans are somehow beyond the natural world and are here to tame/modify/enslave all the survey. @Reader hints at this as well.

Elon Musk is an archetype of this arrogance. 

[martin-w 3,235]

14 hours ago, birdguy said:

'Plan B' to move off into space into orbiting cities under domes.  For how many people?  A mere fraction of the 8 billion we will have in a couple of years.

 

How many people is not relevant. If, for example, a planet killing asteroid hits us (which it one day will - Its inevitable) then all of the human race will be lost, our entire culture, our entire history, everything we once were. It will be as if the human race never existed. So it doesn't matter if 100, 200, 500 1000, or millions of human survive somewhere else in the solar system, as long as its enough to procreate our species survives. 

In the short term, as I have already said, it will be astronauts, scientists, engineers etc. Eventually it will be those who chose to go there, and  (unless its a matter of avoiding an existential threat) many won't want to, which is fine, its not compulsory.

You are one of the ones that wouldn't want to, if you had the opportunity, so I'm not sure what your objection is. Its not compulsory. You cant complain that not many will get to go, after you have said you wouldn't want to go and have expressed the opinion that many wouldn't. 😀

 

14 hours ago, birdguy said:

Are the 'lucky' few who get to live in those sterile orbiting cities going to leave the vast, vast majority to a distopian existence?

 

Are you referring to a world wide cataclysmic event that left a percentage of the human race alive, but those who had previously colonised elsewhere in the solar system  are left untouched? If so, that's a good thing not a bad thing. And I don't see any colonies elsewhere in the solar system not offering assistance. Pretty sure they would assist if there was anything they could do. If that colony was thriving and growing they may well take in refugees. 

I find it contradictory too. First you say living in a dome on another world, not being able to leave without a space suit, would be a nightmare, a dreadful existence, then you complain about being left behind. 🙂

 

Quote

I see no hope unless all this enthusiasm to get colonies in space where they will be little more than zoo creatures, the remnants of what was left behind, is focused more on this planet's recovery.

 

Enthusiasm is irrelevant. Our enthusiasm now for a base on Mars, can't be sent forward in time to the future, after a  disaster than has left the human race devastated, to enthuse those in the future. 

 

14 hours ago, birdguy said:

Reforestation.  Cleaning up the oceans.  Clean energy like solar and wind which is really free energy once the solar panels and windmills are amortized.  More equitable income and wealth distribution.  More spending on infrastructure.  Stabilize global warming.  Eliminating 'forever' wars.  In short more energy and wealth on cleaning up the house we are living in rather than trying to find a new house.  

 

Myself and others have already, a number of times, explained how you can do both, its not one or the other. Again... Elon Musk spending his own companies money to get us to Mars, does not it any way take money or resources away from our efforts to mitigate the environmental issues we face. The two are not connected. 

Edited April 11, 2021 by martin-w

[martin-w 3,235]

12 hours ago, birdguy said:

You are talking here of a scientific effort.  Not the 'Plan B' for moving people off the planet we are destroying as Martin suggested.

 

Us destroying possibly, if we fail to mitigate climate change or some other man made disaster, but also a planet killing scenario nature throws at us. 

Edited April 11, 2021 by martin-w

[martin-w 3,235]

11 minutes ago, yurei said:

Noel, you are spot on and hint at the underlying hubris of certain Western thought habits. I suppose it stems from the Abrahamic traditions, this notion that humans are somehow beyond the natural world and are here to tame/modify/enslave all the survey. @Reader hints at this as well.

Elon Musk is an archetype of this arrogance. 

 

How is Elon Musk an example of this? He isn't about taming or enslaving the natural world at all. His Tesla car company has taken thousands of ICE vehicles off the road and done more to reduce emissions than any other company, his solar tiles are providing renewable energy, his Powerwall batteries are storing renewable energy, his grid scale batteries are doing the same.  Perfect? No of course not, but he's hardly a good example. 

[martin-w 3,235]

5 hours ago, Reader said:

The other view is that the "colonists" in fact killed the inhabitants of the newly found continents, who were living in "perfect harmony with the natural world", either by "dreadful disease" or torture, or indeed just simple murder, to make way for their own need for space and the imposition of their lifestyle.

 

Not relevant. There are no inhabitants elsewhere in the solar system. Unless you know something I don't? 👍

 

5 hours ago, Reader said:

They went on to decimate the animal population to feed the ever growing number of their mouths and later to do the same to the ocean life

 

No animals or oceans either. As the cynics in this thread point out, Mars is a wasteland. 

 

5 hours ago, Reader said:

All the while, inventing grand new methods of travel and manufacture, using irreplaceable fossil fuels in a totally unsustainable way and filling the rivers and oceans with toxic waste of all descriptions. We continue to do this, despite the glaringly obvious destruction that we have wreaked.

 

Again, there's nothing to destroy. Mars is a wasteland. And to be honest, starting a new colony from scratch doesn't necessitate making the same mistakes again. Its a new opportunity to do things differently.

Armed with the knowledge we now have, the same scenario all over again is unlikely. Especially when we consider that there are no fossil fuels on Mars. 🙂

 

5 hours ago, Reader said:

Now, it seems, having ruined our own environment and wiped out our predecessors, it is seen as a good idea to start spreading this self-destructive behaviour to other planets. If that is pushing the envelope, then we deserve extinction.

 

Yes but that's an invention isn't it. You have invented that scenario yourself with absolutely no evidence it would be manifest. 

Its not relevant to the first visitors to Mars, as they will be scientists, astronauts engineers etc. And the power requirements will be small.

It will be many decades or centuries into the future before humankind is so abundant on Mars that they will be in a position to significantly impact the environment. By that time we can be 100% confident that nuclear fusion will be perfected and supplying all the energy we need. Plus, our ability to extract energy from sunlight will be many orders of magnitude more efficient than now. So no toxic waste or harmful gasses from fossil fuel burning. (Although CO2 is a greenhouse gas that might be helpful for terraforming - but that's another story) 

There have never been, as far as we know, fossilised trees on Mars to provide coal or dead sea organisms to provide oil. So I don't think you need to worry too much about polluting Mars. 😉 

On the other hand, you may be aware of a cloaking device around Mars, that hides the lush forests and abundant animal life, that awaits human beings to devastate it. 

 

 

[hs118 707]

32 minutes ago, martin-w said:

 

How is Elon Musk an example of this? He isn't about taming or enslaving the natural world at all. His Tesla car company has taken thousands of ICE vehicles off the road and done more to reduce emissions than any other company, his solar tiles are providing renewable energy, his Powerwall batteries are storing renewable energy, his grid scale batteries are doing the same.  Perfect? No of course not, but he's hardly a good example. 

Maybe we should ask the children dying in the Congo and Bolivia while mining cobalt and lithium about how concerned Musk is for the future of humanity?

[martin-w 3,235]

14 minutes ago, yurei said:

Maybe we should ask the children dying in the Congo and Bolivia while mining cobalt and lithium about how concerned Musk is for the future of humanity?

 

Well yes, but that's an issue for manufacturing all across the planet for a multitude of different products. If you happen to be wearing a T-Shirt its highly likely it will have been manufactured by a small child in a sweat shop in horrific conditions. Same applies to many of the garments we wear. I'd bet good money you are wearing something now that applies to, and I'd bet good money that many of the products you own have been responsible for suffering abroad.

Tesla are working hard to address this (unlike other companies) and are making cathodes that are cobalt free. Tesla are working with Chinese company "Contemporary Amperex Technology" to develop batteries that require no cobalt. 

I should add that (unlike other companies) Tesla's Gigafactory in Nevada (and now elsewhere) is a net zero energy factory.  

As I say, Musk isn't really a good example for the point you were trying to make. People do like to portray him that way though. He's not perfect for sure, but he is an individual the human race currently requires. 

Edited April 11, 2021 by martin-w